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Post by Alvar on Jul 18, 2015 3:23:32 GMT
Yes, but Peter came back from that.
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Post by NightBlade on Jul 18, 2015 3:41:03 GMT
Jesus said that He would build His church on Peter, knowing full well that he would deny Him. I have been exposed to a number of people who've walked away from their faith but returned to the fold wholeheartedly
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Post by Aviar Goldeneagle on Jul 18, 2015 7:39:19 GMT
Alvar: So here's a response to the article you linked to. Hopefully it's not to long. I tried to keep my answers relatively short. What's in quotes is the article. Also, first, just to let you know (you may already know this) but I'm a Catholic, and so what I'm presenting is the teaching of the Catholic Church upon this subject. I would go with this definition of a Christian—as someone who possesses the Holy Spirit. Yup. Yes, I agree with this too. Although it would be their own fault for committing grievous sin to destroy the new creation they have become. My view (the Catholic one) of the redemption sounds a bit different from this. Without getting into all that though, I would just say that it would not be God’s fault that the Christian spurned the blood of Christ, but the fault of the Christian themselves. Also, this mentions a verse from 1 Peter. If we look at other verses from Peter’s letters, he appears to say (at least to me that salvation can be lost. For example in 2Pet. 2:20-22 he writes: “20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire.”
And also 2Pet. 3:14-17: “Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace…You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability.”
They seem to warn about falling away. I would say that to be justified is to be not just declared righteous, but actually made righteous as well. And I believe a Christian could lose this righteousness. And again, I disagree with the concept of justification mentioned here. Yes, Christians will have eternal life, provided they remain in the vine (John 15). Yes, that’s a guarantee that God will never leave us, but that doesn’t say anything about us leaving Him. Well, the Christian really erases His own mark. Yes, due to the fault of the Christian. Like I explained above, this wouldn’t be God breaking His promise, this would be the Christian breaking their fellowship with God. Ephesians 1 tells us that the Spirit is given as a guarantee that God will never leave us, not that we can’t leave God. Due to the Christian committing a mortal sin, yes. But that doesn’t mean the former Christian can’t return to Christ. I don’t really see how it would lessen His glory. To me it seems like it would add to His glory since He would no longer have a sinning Christian as part of His body (The body of Christ, the Church). This passage is talking about predestination to glory. There’s a difference between that and predestination to grace. Someone can be predestined to grace and become a Christian, but not be predestined to glory because they end up falling away. (Although the whole predestination/free will topic is very complicated). What I said above covers this I believe. I believe that there are many passages in Scripture that talk about Christians falling away. Even St. Paul, who was undoubtedly born again, says in 1Cor. 9:27 “but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.”
It seems that even Paul watched himself in case he would fall away. If you read that passage though, notice that it doesn’t say “For I am sure that neither murder or stealing, coveting or adultery, shall be able to separate us from the love of God…” Although, even if we fall away, God is still going to love us and want us to return to him. Although they may snatch themselves out of God’s hand. I agree that Jesus always wants the lost ones to come safely home. Amen. No argument there. So that's my response. Hopefully it wasn't to long or detailed. If you want to keep going we can.
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Post by Alvar on Jul 18, 2015 16:09:58 GMT
Not much else to be debated on that subject. Anyone have another subject?
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Post by NightBlade on Jul 18, 2015 17:50:25 GMT
I would just question where the "implied line" (I sat this for Aviar's sake) is that moves you away from salvation. Is out simply disbelief? Or "enough" bad sins? Or is it all in relative shades of gray?
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Post by Warrior of Aror on Jul 18, 2015 22:53:38 GMT
Yes, but Peter came back from that. I wasn't saying anything about whether a Christian can come back into God's family or not. I was replying to this part of your post: "If you're truly born again, then you wouldn't ever consider denying the God that's now working inside you." But (if what I got from your posts was correct) if you're saying that one was never truly a Born Again if one later denied Christ - I disagree with that. Thus I posted the example of Peter.
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Post by Alvar on Jul 18, 2015 23:53:49 GMT
I was trying to say that if you were truly born again, it wouldn't be a permanent denial.
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Barie
Elf
Crazy out of the loop nowadays. Old age gets us all.
Posts: 16
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Post by Barie on Jul 19, 2015 7:05:02 GMT
I'm not going to really bother with a proper argument and only skimmed your posts, but I've thought about this topic a lot through my life so I wanted to say something.
I like to take a pretty optimistic view of Christianity. So I think that if a person truly believes and accepts Christ for even a moment, then they are saved forever. God knows we're weak and grants mercy for even the briefest of believers, because God is loving beyond my imagination and that is the greatest love I can imagine, so it must be at least that good. That's how I explain it for myself.
Also, I generally believe God isn't subject to our idea of time, so why should he care if I believe at the end of my life or in the middle? Is he going to say, "oh darn Barie, you believed for 50 years, but you lost faith in that last minute, so I'm gunna have to send you to he11. Sorry!"? That doesn't seem like the God I know.
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Post by Alvar on Jul 19, 2015 17:09:12 GMT
I'm not going to really bother with a proper argument and only skimmed your posts, but I've thought about this topic a lot through my life so I wanted to say something. I like to take a pretty optimistic view of Christianity. So I think that if a person truly believes and accepts Christ for even a moment, then they are saved forever. God knows we're weak and grants mercy for even the briefest of believers, because God is loving beyond my imagination and that is the greatest love I can imagine, so it must be at least that good. That's how I explain it for myself. Also, I generally believe God isn't subject to our idea of time, so why should he care if I believe at the end of my life or in the middle? Is he going to say, "oh darn Barie, you believed for 50 years, but you lost faith in that last minute, so I'm gunna have to send you to he11. Sorry!"? That doesn't seem like the God I know. Now if I'm not mistaken, are you saying that if you're saved then you can live any way you like?
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Sam
Elf
Thanks for the warm welcome all.
Posts: 12
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Post by Sam on Jul 19, 2015 17:11:53 GMT
We've covered some ground since I last post and it looks like we're in this weird circle of thinking that can be condensed to this. 1. A Christian can't commit apostasy > A Christian is warned not to commit apostasy > They were never a Christian to start with 2. Paired with the RCC perspective of soteriology. We'd all do well in this thread to avoid seeing salvation only in the eternal sense, something Peter and Paul simply don't. 3. Please stop using smile faces. It doesn't make your post any less intimidating, and even if it was, it feels terribly smug---and I really doubt you are trying to be that smug. I used to use more smilies...stopped. Do recommend to do the same. The protestant perspective here is suffering from statements like this, "What I'm trying to say is that if you have Jesus in your life then you get a sense of guilt when you sin, and you want to repent because you know that you've done something wrong. Of course, it's a little different for everyone, but you know what I'm trying to say." Unbelievers have guilt. This cannot be a measuring rod for a change post salvation. I agree with Aviar in the sense Paul was afraid of something but disagree with his conclusion that it's eternal salvation. Paul was concerned about losing his reward for service by DQing himself. He shows something along this line with warning about a man being saved "as it were through fire" without reward due to building on a poor foundation. Eternal salvation dependent on whether we continue to believe is a relatively untenable way to live especially when paired with mortal/venial sins, unbelieving being one of the mortal ones I should think. Simple breakdown of 2nd Tim 2:11 from a largely protestant perspective that does of course claim orthodoxy...If you aint orthodoxy you're wrong. If we believe in The Christ/Jesus/etc as the giver of our eternal life, this is the state we are in. "Baptized into his death" Gal 3:26-27 as a parallel thought from the same author. A pretty typical reward passage in the NT. We gain from faithfully following in the here and now...we gain eternally. One of the things up for grabs is ruling rights. We see this in Paul's writing again directly following this section. A solid case of plagiarism from the gospels from our Lord. And lest the author of this letter to Timothy cause the church to freak out about losing their eternal salvation, he makes it simple with the next verse. Any what does Christ offer? Salvation to all who believe. And it is not salvation if it will go away in 20 years because I stopped believing. At that point it's a rather toxic placebo affect. I am not concerned for my eternal salvation if Christ denies me as a good servant---ergo says I am a bad one. Whether good or bad my position relative to the Father was either settled through faith already as someone who knows they did believe, or it's hosed. I've dialogued with RCC before and while I have a huge amount of respect for the historical path and gleanings therein it has to offer, doubt either me or you get too much closer on this. In regards to Warrior of Aror you need to be real careful bringing content into this discussions then trying to get off with saying we've covered the issue. You can do better than that, champ! Aviar Goldeneagle I am that Millard! The_Millard, Millardthemk, Babe_Magnet, misc. names with my good friend Tim. Thanks for the kind words! NightBlade In regards to current belief, that really brings into question the permanence of the salvation. Are you comfortable with that? To us all, these are all good things to talk over in a serious manner with our fathers, pastor, elder, and priest while we pursue our own study of scripture and commentary.
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Post by NightBlade on Jul 19, 2015 17:21:16 GMT
I'm pretty certain that is not in the miniscule slightest what she was saying.... But that is basically my sentiment as well. God is a lot more loving and understanding than the unsettling judge man my people make Him out to be. He doesn't draw a maze of lines and tell us to walk through but never step over a line. He offers us grace, and emphasizes that works has nothing to do with salvation. If people slip away from their faith, He pursues them. And I believe that deep down inside, the faith is always in a believer's heart, even if they fall away in mind and action. The holy spirit is still there, trying to guide them back and it never gives up. Edit: Sam Sorry I guess I don't understand the question. But no I don't believe salvation is lost and gained. That raises so many questions, Barie's being one, and another one being, what exactly is the line that one crosses to lose salvation? The entire Bible is a story of God's gift of salvation, so how could something so important as losing it be so unclear? And I totally agree about the smiley face thing btw
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Barie
Elf
Crazy out of the loop nowadays. Old age gets us all.
Posts: 16
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Post by Barie on Jul 19, 2015 18:01:31 GMT
I can't believe you would accuse me of following antinomianism! With that kind of judging it's hard to believe you're actually saved.
I am certainly not saying that. Romans 6:1-2.
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Post by NightBlade on Jul 19, 2015 18:10:47 GMT
Woah hey guys. Guns down OK? While I side with Barie on the theology, there's no need for anyone to get angry.
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Barie
Elf
Crazy out of the loop nowadays. Old age gets us all.
Posts: 16
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Post by Barie on Jul 19, 2015 18:14:26 GMT
NightBlade, sorry, I think you misunderstand me, it's a joke. I'm not angry at all.
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Post by Alvar on Jul 19, 2015 18:49:10 GMT
Ah well. I didn't really think you were saying we could live any way we want, I was asking just to clarify.
Like NightBlade said, since salvation is such a big part of the Bible, why is something like losing it not covered more detail?
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Post by NightBlade on Jul 19, 2015 18:53:05 GMT
It's great that nobody meant offense but tbh both you guys came across pretttty confrontational. So the three of us are basically of the same belief, right?
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Post by Alvar on Jul 19, 2015 18:59:05 GMT
You could say that. I believe that you can't lose salvation, but there's a difference between proclaiming to be saved and actually being saved.
1 John 2:19 states my stand pretty well: "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."
Of course, they can come back to the faith.
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Barie
Elf
Crazy out of the loop nowadays. Old age gets us all.
Posts: 16
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Post by Barie on Jul 19, 2015 19:32:21 GMT
It's great that nobody meant offense but tbh both you guys came across pretttty confrontational. So the three of us are basically of the same belief, right? Is being confrontational always necessarily bad? Also, both you guys? Just to clarify, me and whom?
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Post by Aviar Goldeneagle on Jul 19, 2015 22:01:04 GMT
NightBlade: In Catholic theology, there is a distinction between two types of sins. There is Venial sin that wounds the soul and your relationship with Jesus, and then there’s Mortal sin, which kills the life of God within us. In other words, it would be committing a Mortal sin which would cause one to lose salvation. This distinction between mortal and venial sin is based on 1 John 5:16-17. Basically, if the conditions for the mortal sin are fulfilled (the sin is a very serious sin, the person knows it’s a very serious sin, and the person decides to do it anyway) then that person has fallen away from the Faith and is no longer saved. Although they can also repent of that sin and return to God. Basically, if someone said to God, “God, I know You’re there, I know You do want me to do this, but I’m going to wilfully commit a murder. I don’t care that You say ‘do not murder’, I’m going to do this anyway so I can get what I want.” And then this person went ahead and committed the murder, I would say that he hadn't continued in God's kindness, and so God will cut him off. (Rom. 11:22) Hopefully that explains it well enough. By the way everyone, I notice that a lot of you are saying that it's not very clear in the Bible about whether salvation can be lost. I actually think it's one of the clearest things in Scripture. Pretty much every book in the New Testament (except perhaps Philemon, Jude, and maybe 2 or 3 John) has verses which seem to say that salvation can be lost. I can post them if you like. Also, if we go back into the Old Testament, we see the same thing. Personally, eternal security seems to me to potentially be a dangerous doctrine to believe, since someone could take it to mean that they can live however they want, or, that it won't matter if they commit this sin just once because they'll still be saved. I know that's not what you guys are saying, but it could potentially be understood by someone that way. Also, another question for anyone to answer. How does a person know that they were truly saved, and won't just continue believing for a few years and then fall away, showing that they were never truly born again in the first place? (I'm sure we all know or have heard of people who have seemed to be believers for several years, seeming to love and do the will of God, but who have then fallen away)
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Sam
Elf
Thanks for the warm welcome all.
Posts: 12
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Post by Sam on Jul 19, 2015 23:19:02 GMT
You could say that. I believe that you can't lose salvation, but there's a difference between proclaiming to be saved and actually being saved. 1 John 2:19 states my stand pretty well: "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us." Of course, they can come back to the faith. There is no coming back to a faith they never had. These are antichrists who have denying the father and the son and (likely) that relationship as it ties in with eternal life. v 18-22, 24
In regards to the next question, Answer: Did they, or do they, believe in Jesus as the giver of their eternal life (life eternal). If they have done so in the past, or do now, they are saved and may have confidence in this looking toward the words of Christ in the gospel of John as well as many other acts/statements of the apostles.
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Post by NightBlade on Jul 19, 2015 23:36:54 GMT
NightBlade: In Catholic theology, there is a distinction between two types of sins. There is Venial sin that wounds the soul and your relationship with Jesus, and then there’s Mortal sin, which kills the life of God within us. In other words, it would be committing a Mortal sin which would cause one to lose salvation. This distinction between mortal and venial sin is based on 1 John 5:16-17. Basically, if the conditions for the mortal sin are fulfilled (the sin is a very serious sin, the person knows it’s a very serious sin, and the person decides to do it anyway) then that person has fallen away from the Faith and is no longer saved. Although they can also repent of that sin and return to God. Basically, if someone said to God, “God, I know You’re there, I know You do want me to do this, but I’m going to wilfully commit a murder. I don’t care that You say ‘do not murder’, I’m going to do this anyway so I can get what I want.” And then this person went ahead and committed the murder, I would say that he hadn't continued in God's kindness, and so God will cut him off. (Rom. 11:22) Hopefully that explains it well enough. By the way everyone, I notice that a lot of you are saying that it's not very clear in the Bible about whether salvation can be lost. I actually think it's one of the clearest things in Scripture. Pretty much every book in the New Testament (except perhaps Philemon, Jude, and maybe 2 or 3 John) has verses which seem to say that salvation can be lost. I can post them if you like. Also, if we go back into the Old Testament, we see the same thing. Personally, eternal security seems to me to potentially be a dangerous doctrine to believe, since someone could take it to mean that they can live however they want, or, that it won't matter if they commit this sin just once because they'll still be saved. I know that's not what you guys are saying, but it could potentially be understood by someone that way. Also, another question for anyone to answer. How does a person know that they were truly saved, and won't just continue believing for a few years and then fall away, showing that they were never truly born again in the first place? (I'm sure we all know or have heard of people who have seemed to be believers for several years, seeming to love and do the will of God, but who have then fallen away) I have to admit, I see that stuff as imaginative elaboration on isolated verses. It draws dangerous lines in the sand that, in my opinion, place too much emphasis on works. Barie Me you and Alvar seem to be on the same page. And what I mean by confrontational is initiating/perpetuating a conflict instead of a discussion. But clearly that didn't happen so all's good
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Post by Alvar on Jul 20, 2015 0:46:52 GMT
I feel like we should debate on the existence of Purgatory... What do you guys think? I agree with Nightblade on putting too much emphasis on works. Sam: Good point.
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Post by Aviar Goldeneagle on Jul 20, 2015 1:30:34 GMT
I have to admit, I see that stuff as imaginative elaboration on isolated verses. It draws dangerous lines in the sand that, in my opinion, place too much emphasis on works. NightBlade: How so? What specifically do you see as placing too much emphasis on works? (which is simply obedience to God) Alvar: One more post 'till you get to 100... I would ask you the same question I asked Nightblade. I don't mind debating Purgatory if you want to. Nightblade, Lady Kathrynn, and I debated it a bit on the old UG, so I would probably begin by repeating what I said on there, which you may have already read. Sam: What if someone truly thought they believed in Jesus as the giver of their eternal life, but then a few years later decided they no longer believed that? Would they have never been born again in the first place? Would that be an impossibility? Sorry if these questions are getting a bit repetitious. Just trying to get everyone's perspective. (And I'll watch my smileys. Hehe.) @everyone: Just to let y'all know, I'm not trying to attack you guys faith or anything, and I love it how we can talk about these things in a friendly way with each other.
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Post by NightBlade on Jul 20, 2015 1:35:27 GMT
I have to admit, I see that stuff as imaginative elaboration on isolated verses. It draws dangerous lines in the sand that, in my opinion, place too much emphasis on works. NightBlade: How so? What specifically do you see as placing too much emphasis on works? (which is simply obedience to God) Alvar: I would ask you the same question I asked Nightblade. I don't mind debating Purgatory if you want to. Nightblade, Lady Kathrynn, and I debated it a bit on the old UG, so I would probably begin by repeating what I said on there, which you may have already read. Sam: What if someone truly thought they believed in Jesus as the giver of their eternal life, but then a few years later decided they no longer believed that? Would they have never been born again in the first place? Would that be an impossibility? Sorry if these questions are getting a bit repetitious. Just trying to get everyone's perspective. (And I'll watch my smileys. Hehe.) @everyone: Just to let y'all know, I'm not trying to attack you guys faith or anything, and I love it how we can talk about these things in a friendly way with each other. What I mean is, you're labeling some sins as worse than others, and in general principle you're therefore linking our works to our salvation. And when has anyone thought they believed in Jesus and then realized they didn't? That sounds like a logical impossibility. It's like thinking that I thought something but then realizing I didn't
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Post by Alvar on Jul 20, 2015 1:37:44 GMT
Aviar Goldeneagle Goldeneagle: I didn't read much of the old debate thread, so I probably didn't see it. I personally have fun debating about stuff as long as everyone keeps their cool while debating. I would say the same as NightBlade.
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Post by Aviar Goldeneagle on Jul 20, 2015 1:46:51 GMT
What I mean is, you're labeling some sins as worse than others, and in general principle you're therefore linking our works to our salvation. Doesn't St. John label some sins as worse than others in 1 John 5:16-17? "If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal." Also, don't you see our works linked to our salvation in any way, along with our faith? (Hehe, this could potentially begin another debate... ) What I meant, was that someone truly could be believing in Jesus for a time. They could have heard the Word of God and accepted it, but when times get hard they could fall away. (Matt. 13:20-21) Like one of the branches that are part of the vine (meaning they're Christians) but they don't produce fruit and so they are cut off and thrown into the fire. (John 15) That's what I was meaning. Probably I didn't word it very well. Basically, as an example, you believe in God right now, but what if you were to decide that you have been mistaken all the years you've believed in Him, and decide to become an atheist (God forbid)? Would that be possible? Would you still be saved? Would you never have been saved in the first place? Alvar: Probably the reason there's two "Goldeneagles" is because you're writing (at)aviar goldeneagle, instead of just (at)aviar. Yes, I love debating too as long as everyone does it charitably. If you want to debate Purgatory I can go ahead and post what I wrote on the old UG about it. I've got it saved on my computer. Or would you rather I wait until everyone's finished discussing this topic? I don't mind either way.
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Sam
Elf
Thanks for the warm welcome all.
Posts: 12
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Post by Sam on Jul 20, 2015 1:50:19 GMT
Hey! Fewer smilies and I'm digging it bro!
They would still have been eternally saved at the moment of belief, regardless of their future decisions. So: Yes born again. Yes possible to stop believing. No, not possible to lose eternal salvation.
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Post by Aviar Goldeneagle on Jul 20, 2015 1:55:29 GMT
Hey! Fewer smilies and I'm digging it bro! They would still have been eternally saved at the moment of belief, regardless of their future decisions. So: Yes born again. Yes possible to stop believing. No, not possible to lose eternal salvation. Hehe! Okay, so what if this person stopped believing and told God he hated Him and didn't want to go to Heaven? Would he still be saved? BTW, it's really cool to be talking to you about this stuff. I read basically every post on the old UG theological debate thread, and I thought it would be really cool to talk to you. Alvar: See my response to him.
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Post by NightBlade on Jul 20, 2015 1:58:07 GMT
What I mean is, you're labeling some sins as worse than others, and in general principle you're therefore linking our works to our salvation. Doesn't St. John label some sins as worse than others in 1 John 5:16-17? "If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal." Also, don't you see our works linked to our salvation in any way, along with our faith? (Hehe, this could potentially begin another debate... ) What I meant, was that someone truly could be believing in Jesus for a time. They could have heard the Word of God and accepted it, but when times get hard they could fall away. (Matt. 13:20-21) Like one of the branches that are part of the vine (meaning they're Christians) but they don't produce fruit and so they are cut off and thrown into the fire. (John 15) That's what I was meaning. Probably I didn't word it very well. Basically, as an example, you believe in God right now, but what if you were to decide that you have been mistaken all the years you've believed in Him, and decide to become an atheist (God forbid)? Would that be possible? Would you still be saved? Would you never have been saved in the first place? Alvar: Probably the reason there's two "Goldeneagles" is because you're writing (at)aviar goldeneagle, instead of just (at)aviar. Yes, I love debating too as long as everyone does it charitably. If you want to debate Purgatory I can go ahead and post what I wrote on the old UG about it. I've got it saved on my computer. Or would you rather I wait until everyone's finished discussing this topic? I don't mind either way. "Mortal" Means pertaining to the flesh. Just out of curiosity, have you read the whole chapters surrounding these verses you've been referencing? And no, I believe there is no works involved whatsoever, save believing. Romans 5 as a whole holds a lot of my case, this verse especially: "For bey grace you have been saved, through faith, and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." I see very little room for argument in this verse, especially considering the context.
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Post by Alvar on Jul 20, 2015 2:01:29 GMT
Salvation comes through faith in Jesus. When you accept Jesus as your savior, you are remade (regenerated) through Christ. The good works we do are a result of salvation, and shouldn't be tied to maintaining/gaining salvation. That's my view on it.
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