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Post by Starsinger on May 12, 2016 2:48:16 GMT
There are three recognised exceptions to the 6th commandment: capital punishment, a just war, and self defence. So if it was necessary to kill to protect life, then I would not see a problem with it... though I'd still expect a heavy weight on the conscience.
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Post by WookieeElf on May 12, 2016 2:56:30 GMT
If someone was hurting me, I'd probably just roll over and take it. But, if they were hurting my family...they dead.
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Post by Ellron Silvertree on May 12, 2016 6:47:01 GMT
I don't agree about capital punishment. That's not our decision to make. Besides, there's always the chance that even the most hardened killer can be brought to the light, as long as he is alive. By killing him you take that chance away.
And honestly... I don't know how I would react. I've never been in any situation close enough to that. But I do know two or three things. I know that one person's dignity does not trump another's, even if I care more for one. And I know that one sinful act does not justify another. Killing in self defense or the defense of others is morally licit, but killing or harming in revenge is not. And we should also avoid killing unless absolutely necessary. Emotions aside, the way you respond to a loved one being threatened should ideally be just the same as a stranger being threatened.
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Post by Starsinger on May 12, 2016 8:24:31 GMT
I don't personally agree with capital punishment either, and I'm glad we don't have it at all in NZ.
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Post by NightBlade on May 12, 2016 13:48:13 GMT
I'm a little confused by your answer, Ellron Silvertree. Do you mean that if it came down to a choice of your loved one--say, a younger sibling? A girlfriend? A child?--and a raider intent on hunting you for his own survival, you would let them harm or kill you both? Does the number of people on either side make a difference? I don't think one sin justifying another is actually any part of the situation
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Post by jliessa44 on May 12, 2016 13:59:21 GMT
Honestly, once you choose to sin you've accepted the consequences. And I do agree with capital punishment. A mass murderer, a serial killer isn't likely to change. And forcing prisons to hold them is just going to give them opportunities to escape and drain funds that could be better used. I'm sorry, but it's true. Capital punishment should only be used in rare cases, but it does have its place. You can give them every opportunity that you can to change before they die, but really I have no sympathy for a man who butchered a five year old girl for fun.
But that wasn't really the point. It was a heat of the moment what would you do to save someone. Not what would you do for revenge, and when should we use capital punishment.
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Post by NightBlade on May 12, 2016 14:10:40 GMT
Bedside the point though it may be, I agree about the capital punishment. God made it a very serious point to say that in areas of greievous sin, a man's blood was on his own hands. I don't think that's a part of the OT law we can just "glaze over"
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Post by Ellron Silvertree on May 12, 2016 15:25:35 GMT
With respect to capital punishment, what we are talking about here are souls. Real, human souls. If anything, a mass murderer should definitely not be given capital punishment because they need all the chance they can get to repent. I have far more pity and sympathy for the man who killed the five year old girl than for the girl herself. What I mean is, she is completely innocent and below the age of reason(generally accepted to be 7), so it's safe to believe that she goes to heaven. What the man has done has not just damaged a body, but he's butchered his own soul. And that's horrible. He needs more prayer than anyone else.
And I know that you were referring more to the heat of the moment, but again, I can't reasonably predict how I would act in that moment.
To answer your question, NightBlade, no. I don't mean I would just sit there and let my loved ones suffer or die. But your relationship with the person shouldn't change your decision to help them. I would *like* to think that if the helpless victim was a cold blooded killer I would still protect them. Because the reason you care about another's life shouldn't be because of your emotions toward them, but because of thair intrinsic value as a human person. That value doesn't change, no matter what the person has done or how you feel about them.
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Post by CNGoodhue on May 12, 2016 15:58:38 GMT
I'd lie and steal, but I don't know if I could bring myself to kill someone. If that was literally the only option and I had to decide between killing someone or losing my best friend - maybe. Don't know if I'd have the guts to do it.
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Post by jliessa44 on May 12, 2016 16:32:25 GMT
I'm not really going to get into a debate on capital punishment. But I will say that short of a miracle of God, someone like that will never be saved. And capital punishment does little (if anything) to change the likelihood of that miracle taking place. I understand what you're saying, I do. But I think you're wrong. People should suffer the consequences of their actions, especially when they've done something that horrible. And this is coming from the girl who literally cannot read Revelations because I end up sobbing every time over the lost souls.
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Post by NightBlade on May 12, 2016 16:56:21 GMT
Ah, age of reason/accountability. That might be the difference between you and I...but I don't think this is the thread to discuss it. In the end, although I see and respect where you're coming from, I think that man knew what he was doing and it's time for him to pay the ultimate price for what he's done. He's had time to make his choices.
Is fighting and killing as a soldier in war to protect people you love different or less "wrong" in principle than fighting and killing someone who threatens your family on the homefront?
I've thought this through and searched myself for a very long time about this and I think that if it came down to forfeiting the life of a loved one and taking the life of another person, I am going to save my friend. No matter what. It doesn't matter where that other person is going when he dies...to me, letting a friend die is the worst sin and I will do absolutely whatever it takes to protect the person(s) in my care. God can punish me for killing another man but letting a loved one die because I didn't have enough guts would weigh on my conscience worse than anything else.
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Post by Ellron Silvertree on May 12, 2016 17:31:14 GMT
We will just have to agree to disagree then. This is neither the time nor place to debate this I suppose. But in my view yes, he should face the consequences of his actions, but so should we all. But by God's grace we don't, not completely, and thank God for that. I also don't think it's our place to make the decision of whether a man lives or dies in a situation where he isn't a clear and present danger.
And no, NightBlade, I don't think that a soldier is inherently wrong. That's not what I'm getting at at all.
To the third part, I think you have been misunderstanding me. I don't think you should just sit back and not do anything while your friend dies. That's not at all what I was getting at. I'm just saying it's complicated and I don't know what I would do. And I'm not saying God would punish you for defending your friend, that's silly. But I would be careful with a mentality of "I will take God's punishment to do what I think is right/more important," because in that case you're disordering your will to God's will. And I'm not saying that you're doing that, but what you said made me think of it.
Think about this for a second: where would we be if Jesus killed or punished every man who hurt or killed his friends, regardless of the state of their soul?
Again, I'm not saying that this will all apply in a split-second, life or death situation. But in hypotheticals I feel like you have to think about the reality of these things, because you have time to. Also, to be clear, I do respect your opinions and your right to them, though I may not agree completely.
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Post by jliessa44 on May 12, 2016 17:46:02 GMT
The punishment Jesus's death took away was life in H.ell. He didn't remove the consequences of actions.
But I'm done now. Lol
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Post by Ellron Silvertree on May 12, 2016 17:56:23 GMT
Technically is isn't life in Hā¬ll. There is no life. But I've already said most of what I would say anyways, so yeah. Okay. I mean no disrespect, I just don't understand how one can be in line with the teaching of Christ and value the salvation of souls above all else and still agree with the death penalty. But I'm not going to continue arguing about it, because I have a bad habit of getting into arguments and not dropping them.
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Post by jliessa44 on May 12, 2016 18:01:11 GMT
You know what I meant. Honestly and truly, I think I have a different view of Christianity than you, for better or worse I don't know.
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Post by Ellron Silvertree on May 12, 2016 18:04:29 GMT
Probably. I mean, I'm Catholic, and our views tend to be different from many other groups of people. But that's enough of that for now, and no hard feelings I hope :)
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Post by jliessa44 on May 12, 2016 18:09:25 GMT
Ah. And I'm nondenominational. So I don't get along with a lot of people. Lol. This conversation makes more sense now.
Nope. No hard feelings. Debates/discussions don't typically involve emotion for me. Lol.
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Post by Ellron Silvertree on May 12, 2016 18:15:02 GMT
Okay. I'm never quite sure in debates, so I always like to check.
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Post by Aviar Goldeneagle on May 12, 2016 21:19:37 GMT
Ellron Silvertree: If you read 2267 of the CCC, the Catholic Church says that Capital Punishment isn't something that is inherently wrong in itself, and that there are times, fairly rare today, when it can be used.
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Post by Ellron Silvertree on May 12, 2016 22:24:24 GMT
Aha. I'll have to look at it when I get home, my Catechism is currently buried in my book bag. I did not know that, though. I still don't agree with it in general, but I can understand why it might be necessary I suppose.
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Post by Aviar Goldeneagle on May 13, 2016 2:24:04 GMT
Ellron Silvertree : The Catechism says: The second paragraph is basically what you were saying, I think.
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Post by jliessa44 on May 13, 2016 2:31:11 GMT
And that's actually basically what I was saying. I would argue that it's slight more common than virtually nonexistent. But basically what I was saying.
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Post by Kirenyth Fireblade on May 25, 2016 19:58:08 GMT
I think this is a topic for one or both of the debate threads...
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Post by Elethia Arvell on May 31, 2016 13:05:50 GMT
I love your profile pic, Kirenyth! (I know that's off topic, but I had to say it.)
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Post by Starsinger on Jul 27, 2016 22:41:19 GMT
How do you guys read the Bible and pray? I'm both curious and struggle lots with it, particularly the latter.
(Edit: Plus I feel like for a christian forum, there is a great lack of any christian discussion.)
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Post by jliessa44 on Jul 27, 2016 23:51:22 GMT
It's kinda something I struggle with too honestly. Bible reading anyway. Prayer for me is just mostly me thinking whatever pops into my head to God whenever. I don't know how to describe it. Like its actual prayer, but kinda more conversational and less formal.
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Post by Starsinger on Jul 27, 2016 23:54:59 GMT
I've found that listening to epic instrumental music makes reading the Bible easier, but I dunno if that's a good or bad thing. But basically I've only started reading it regularly in the last week or two. Prayer is just what I can't do. I get distracted, and I feel stupid which really isn't god.
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Post by jliessa44 on Jul 28, 2016 0:06:02 GMT
I just never remember to read it. And even when I do I'm always struggling to find the relevance of most the chapter. I dunno.
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Post by Starsinger on Jul 28, 2016 0:11:15 GMT
Well... I get bored with nothing to do, and Eru told me about Ezekiel eating food cooked over excrement, so I figure I'd try it out, so I've been reading a bit every morning, hopefully getting into a pattern, so I don't forget, because I'm like that too. And mostly I do struggle to get anything out of it, like I dunno how to do that.
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Post by Eruanna on Jul 28, 2016 0:14:34 GMT
I know for me when I'm struggling with Bible reading, so every day, I will always go to a book I like, such as Daniel, Revelations, Jeremiah, and I'll just flick through. Or I'll find a funny Bible story, like when Paul spoke so much a boy named Eutychus fell asleep listening on the ledge of a window, fell off, and died. And if I can't find anything amusing or encouraging, I go to Psalms and sit there until I become at least a little inspired.
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