There are three recognised exceptions to the 6th commandment: capital punishment, a just war, and self defence. So if it was necessary to kill to protect life, then I would not see a problem with it... though I'd still expect a heavy weight on the conscience.
Post by Ellron Silvertree on May 12, 2016 6:47:01 GMT
I don't agree about capital punishment. That's not our decision to make. Besides, there's always the chance that even the most hardened killer can be brought to the light, as long as he is alive. By killing him you take that chance away.
And honestly... I don't know how I would react. I've never been in any situation close enough to that. But I do know two or three things. I know that one person's dignity does not trump another's, even if I care more for one. And I know that one sinful act does not justify another. Killing in self defense or the defense of others is morally licit, but killing or harming in revenge is not. And we should also avoid killing unless absolutely necessary. Emotions aside, the way you respond to a loved one being threatened should ideally be just the same as a stranger being threatened.
I'm a little confused by your answer, Ellron Silvertree. Do you mean that if it came down to a choice of your loved one--say, a younger sibling? A girlfriend? A child?--and a raider intent on hunting you for his own survival, you would let them harm or kill you both? Does the number of people on either side make a difference? I don't think one sin justifying another is actually any part of the situation
Last Edit: May 12, 2016 13:48:40 GMT by NightBlade
Ni su'cuyi, gar kyr'adyc, ni partayli, gar darasuum.
Honestly, once you choose to sin you've accepted the consequences. And I do agree with capital punishment. A mass murderer, a serial killer isn't likely to change. And forcing prisons to hold them is just going to give them opportunities to escape and drain funds that could be better used. I'm sorry, but it's true. Capital punishment should only be used in rare cases, but it does have its place. You can give them every opportunity that you can to change before they die, but really I have no sympathy for a man who butchered a five year old girl for fun.
But that wasn't really the point. It was a heat of the moment what would you do to save someone. Not what would you do for revenge, and when should we use capital punishment.
Bedside the point though it may be, I agree about the capital punishment. God made it a very serious point to say that in areas of greievous sin, a man's blood was on his own hands. I don't think that's a part of the OT law we can just "glaze over"
Ni su'cuyi, gar kyr'adyc, ni partayli, gar darasuum.
Post by Ellron Silvertree on May 12, 2016 15:25:35 GMT
With respect to capital punishment, what we are talking about here are souls. Real, human souls. If anything, a mass murderer should definitely not be given capital punishment because they need all the chance they can get to repent. I have far more pity and sympathy for the man who killed the five year old girl than for the girl herself. What I mean is, she is completely innocent and below the age of reason(generally accepted to be 7), so it's safe to believe that she goes to heaven. What the man has done has not just damaged a body, but he's butchered his own soul. And that's horrible. He needs more prayer than anyone else.
And I know that you were referring more to the heat of the moment, but again, I can't reasonably predict how I would act in that moment.
To answer your question, NightBlade, no. I don't mean I would just sit there and let my loved ones suffer or die. But your relationship with the person shouldn't change your decision to help them. I would *like* to think that if the helpless victim was a cold blooded killer I would still protect them. Because the reason you care about another's life shouldn't be because of your emotions toward them, but because of thair intrinsic value as a human person. That value doesn't change, no matter what the person has done or how you feel about them.
I'd lie and steal, but I don't know if I could bring myself to kill someone. If that was literally the only option and I had to decide between killing someone or losing my best friend - maybe. Don't know if I'd have the guts to do it.
I'm not really going to get into a debate on capital punishment. But I will say that short of a miracle of God, someone like that will never be saved. And capital punishment does little (if anything) to change the likelihood of that miracle taking place. I understand what you're saying, I do. But I think you're wrong. People should suffer the consequences of their actions, especially when they've done something that horrible. And this is coming from the girl who literally cannot read Revelations because I end up sobbing every time over the lost souls.
Ah, age of reason/accountability. That might be the difference between you and I...but I don't think this is the thread to discuss it. In the end, although I see and respect where you're coming from, I think that man knew what he was doing and it's time for him to pay the ultimate price for what he's done. He's had time to make his choices.
Is fighting and killing as a soldier in war to protect people you love different or less "wrong" in principle than fighting and killing someone who threatens your family on the homefront?
I've thought this through and searched myself for a very long time about this and I think that if it came down to forfeiting the life of a loved one and taking the life of another person, I am going to save my friend. No matter what. It doesn't matter where that other person is going when he dies...to me, letting a friend die is the worst sin and I will do absolutely whatever it takes to protect the person(s) in my care. God can punish me for killing another man but letting a loved one die because I didn't have enough guts would weigh on my conscience worse than anything else.
Ni su'cuyi, gar kyr'adyc, ni partayli, gar darasuum.
Post by Ellron Silvertree on May 12, 2016 17:31:14 GMT
We will just have to agree to disagree then. This is neither the time nor place to debate this I suppose. But in my view yes, he should face the consequences of his actions, but so should we all. But by God's grace we don't, not completely, and thank God for that. I also don't think it's our place to make the decision of whether a man lives or dies in a situation where he isn't a clear and present danger.
And no, NightBlade, I don't think that a soldier is inherently wrong. That's not what I'm getting at at all.
To the third part, I think you have been misunderstanding me. I don't think you should just sit back and not do anything while your friend dies. That's not at all what I was getting at. I'm just saying it's complicated and I don't know what I would do. And I'm not saying God would punish you for defending your friend, that's silly. But I would be careful with a mentality of "I will take God's punishment to do what I think is right/more important," because in that case you're disordering your will to God's will. And I'm not saying that you're doing that, but what you said made me think of it.
Think about this for a second: where would we be if Jesus killed or punished every man who hurt or killed his friends, regardless of the state of their soul?
Again, I'm not saying that this will all apply in a split-second, life or death situation. But in hypotheticals I feel like you have to think about the reality of these things, because you have time to. Also, to be clear, I do respect your opinions and your right to them, though I may not agree completely.
Post by Ellron Silvertree on May 12, 2016 17:56:23 GMT
Technically is isn't life in H€ll. There is no life. But I've already said most of what I would say anyways, so yeah. Okay. I mean no disrespect, I just don't understand how one can be in line with the teaching of Christ and value the salvation of souls above all else and still agree with the death penalty. But I'm not going to continue arguing about it, because I have a bad habit of getting into arguments and not dropping them.
Post by Aviar Goldeneagle on May 12, 2016 21:19:37 GMT
Ellron Silvertree: If you read 2267 of the CCC, the Catholic Church says that Capital Punishment isn't something that is inherently wrong in itself, and that there are times, fairly rare today, when it can be used.
Post by Ellron Silvertree on May 12, 2016 22:24:24 GMT
Aha. I'll have to look at it when I get home, my Catechism is currently buried in my book bag. I did not know that, though. I still don't agree with it in general, but I can understand why it might be necessary I suppose.
2267 Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.
If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.
Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically non-existent."
The second paragraph is basically what you were saying, I think.
It's kinda something I struggle with too honestly. Bible reading anyway. Prayer for me is just mostly me thinking whatever pops into my head to God whenever. I don't know how to describe it. Like its actual prayer, but kinda more conversational and less formal.
I've found that listening to epic instrumental music makes reading the Bible easier, but I dunno if that's a good or bad thing. But basically I've only started reading it regularly in the last week or two. Prayer is just what I can't do. I get distracted, and I feel stupid which really isn't god.
Well... I get bored with nothing to do, and Eru told me about Ezekiel eating food cooked over excrement, so I figure I'd try it out, so I've been reading a bit every morning, hopefully getting into a pattern, so I don't forget, because I'm like that too. And mostly I do struggle to get anything out of it, like I dunno how to do that.
I know for me when I'm struggling with Bible reading, so every day, I will always go to a book I like, such as Daniel, Revelations, Jeremiah, and I'll just flick through. Or I'll find a funny Bible story, like when Paul spoke so much a boy named Eutychus fell asleep listening on the ledge of a window, fell off, and died. And if I can't find anything amusing or encouraging, I go to Psalms and sit there until I become at least a little inspired.
Think big, dream bigger Ready, set, pull the trigger~ *Member of the Underground since November 4th 2011*
Dmitri Pendragon: Elytra: Wait, it's actually referring to the oldest post on the Underground? (I never did chase that down in fact…)
Nov 27, 2019 19:32:25 GMT
Leilani Sunblade: Rose: Welcome to Whitehall/the new Underground! Glad to see you found your way here. As Elytra said, the riddle's pointing towards the old site and, specifically, a scavenger-hunt type game that WTB and CH set up when they first released the book
Nov 28, 2019 21:11:04 GMT
Leilani Sunblade: Sadly, the game is over, but we still have fun here.
Nov 28, 2019 21:11:16 GMT
Warrior of Aror: Let us sit round the hearth and tell stories of the lives we have lived these past moons! I myself have been working at a grand theater telling Bible stories from behind the scenes.
Feb 29, 2020 1:44:51 GMT