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Post by jliessa44 on May 9, 2016 14:07:37 GMT
Heh understandable. I've never liked Cap much (which may have something to do why I'm not with him) I think he was right in the majority of the movie. But on the core issue I think he fell short. Plus, I feel Iron Man is more relatable and less... I don't know how to say it. But it seems like Iron Man looks at what they've done and says, "We made a mistake, we need to fix this so it gets better". Cap says, "Yeah we made a mistake, but this is the only and best way and so we have to keep using it".
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Post by WookieeElf on May 9, 2016 14:18:11 GMT
To add onto your last statement: Steve knows war. He's lost people—heck, he lost his parents to war. That's what he wanted to be when he got older: a warrior. A soldier. He understands the fact that you can't win without losing. And he's seen what HYDRA is capable of, he knows what they're facing, and what might happen if the UN/someone takes control of the Avengers.
For Tony, this is new. He's grown up in the lap of luxury. It wasn't until the events of Iron Man that he saw what war really was. He even mentioned in Civil War how he stopped his weapons manufacturing because of what he saw. Loss isn't new to him, but it still hurts. For Steve, it's an old wound. For Tony, it's still fresh.
When it all boils down, Civil War is a movie about a man with nothing to lose fighting a man who could lose everything.
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Post by Ellron Silvertree on May 10, 2016 4:12:29 GMT
I like Cap because of what he stands for. In a way, he represents the ideal of how a Christian should live. Or at least his ideology does. I watched an awesome video about it.
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Post by Ellron Silvertree on May 15, 2016 16:37:06 GMT
Okay, sorry for the double post, but having now seen the movie I am still on Cap's side.
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Post by NightBlade on May 15, 2016 17:08:49 GMT
Funny thing... I like Captain America a lot more than Iron Man. But I like Downey Jr a lot more than Chris Evans
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Post by WookieeElf on May 15, 2016 17:32:19 GMT
I feel the same way, though I like Iron Man a little more after seeing Civil War. He's had an impressive character arc.
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Post by NightBlade on May 15, 2016 18:11:40 GMT
She's not a well known actress per se, but I've recently taken a bit of a fan shine to Natalie Dormer
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Post by WookieeElf on May 15, 2016 19:25:16 GMT
She's alright...
But she played the chick who snogged Captain America in his first movie in front of Peggy so I'm not a big fan.
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Post by NightBlade on May 15, 2016 20:11:39 GMT
I 707ed at that part xD Cap was totally going with it for a while, too
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Post by Ellron Silvertree on May 16, 2016 0:35:05 GMT
Spoilers for Civil War. Oh, I completely agree. Tony has developed as a character very well. And I understand both sides. But I still lean towards Cap. I mean, I understand that they ought to have someone to answer to, but that specific accord was a bad idea. The UN just isn't the right way to go. Too much protocol and beaurocracy and whatnot. Did I spell that right?
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Post by WookieeElf on May 16, 2016 2:11:24 GMT
Spoilers for Civil War Totally. I mean...this is the government that wanted to nuke New York just because Loki invaded. And now they want control over the Avengers? To quote Sam Wilson: "No." And then they locked up poor Wanda. Yes, her actions killed civilians, but she saved a lot of people! And how do they thank her? They put her under house-arrest, tell her she's a danger to society, then put her in a kriffing straight jacket and a shock collar. While I sympathize with Tony, I'm totally Team Cap.
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Post by Kirenyth Fireblade on May 22, 2016 21:33:17 GMT
Spoiler for Civil War I think they're both wrong to some degree. Yes, cap is right about Bucky, but there were more diplomatic ways to go about what he did. Tony, on the other hand, was back to his old narcissistic self, as well as being a jerk to pretty much everyone. But even though I understand his pain, taking revenge on Bucky was not ok.
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Post by WookieeElf on May 23, 2016 0:16:45 GMT
Spoiler for Civil War I think they're both wrong to some degree. Yes, cap is right about Bucky, but there were more diplomatic ways to go about what he did. Tony, on the other hand, was back to his old narcissistic self, as well as being a jerk to pretty much everyone. But even though I understand his pain, taking revenge on Bucky was not ok.
Spoilers for Civil War While they are both in the wrong, you've gotta understand that they didn't really have any other choice. With Cap, he couldn't do much else. Bucky was framed (but they didn't know it yet) and people wanted his head. After the loss of Peggy, Bucky was all that Steve had from his past life. He wasn't ready to let go, and reacted accordingly. Most people don't recognize this, but Steve is the risk-taker, the adrenaline junkie. If there's a problem, he'll do everything he can to fix it, even if it's stupid. For Tony, he's crazy-stressed out, and dealing with PTSD and most likely survivor's guilt. His worst fear is leading his team to their deaths. If the Sokovia Accords fixed that problem, he was ready to support it. He was just out of Sokovia and what happened in Iron Man 3. Pepper was 'taking a break', and he was hurting. He does want anyone to hurt like he does. Now, when he found out about Bucky's role in his parents' death, I can understand why he snapped. He just had half of the Avengers turn on him to protect his parents' murderer, and had to watch as his wingman fell out of the sky. He's tired, he's hurt, and when he feels like things are starting to mend—the bomb drops. Steve knew, and hid the truth from him. That would make any normal man snap.
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Post by Ellron Silvertree on May 23, 2016 1:03:30 GMT
EDIT: I forgot about our earlier exchanges, so some of this may be repetitive or redundant xP To be fair Steve didn't know, not exactly, anyway. And I don't think it's quite fair to lower him to an adrenaline junkie. There is a big difference between that and, as Cap puts it, not being able to just sit back when there's some he can do to help. It's like Peter Parker said, "When you have abilities to stop things, when bad stuff starts to happen, it becomes your fault." Cap has a very strong sense of Great Power, Great Responsibility, and the Sokovia Accords go against his beliefs on that.
I do agree, neither of them are completely correct. They need to answer to someone, but the Sokovia Accords aren't the way to do it.
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Post by Kirenyth Fireblade on May 23, 2016 14:48:28 GMT
Spoilers for Civil War Maybe if they had come up with sort of a "code of conduct" that obligated them to assist with restoration of areas where there had been a battle (this includes making amends with the families of bystanders who had been killed during the fighting). That was the main reason people were mad at the avengers: they came in, and after the fighting they just left with a giant mess in their wake.
EDIT: I saw the trailer for Dr. Strange and I was like NOPENOPENOPENOPE *runs away* WAY too much like the power Satan offers to deceive people!
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Post by NightBlade on May 27, 2016 17:40:52 GMT
Say what?
Having seen X-Men Apocalypse last night, I liked it and would recommend it, albeit with a bit of salt. It did meet its PG-13 boundaries a bit with language and violence, and there was an instance of questionable clothing. But on the positive side, excellent character role models and also positive spiritual tones.
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Post by Ellron Silvertree on May 27, 2016 22:15:23 GMT
I think Dr. Strange looks really good.
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Post by jliessa44 on May 28, 2016 2:08:48 GMT
I can't wait to see it. Dr. Strange was one of my favorites in the cartoons once I got older.
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Post by NightBlade on May 28, 2016 2:29:39 GMT
I'm ambivalent towards Dr Strange. More excited for Suicide Squad by far. Though Margot is an awful actress for Harley, Leto looks like he'll be an interesting Joker and I can't wait to see em both
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Post by WookieeElf on May 28, 2016 2:33:00 GMT
I'm excited for Doctor Strange. He's an interesting character in the comics that I've read.
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Post by jliessa44 on May 28, 2016 2:45:25 GMT
Not even gonna watch suicide squad. I hate the Joker, one. B, I hate Harley Quinn. And III, I really hate how mental illness is portrayed in Batman villains. I still like Batman, (actually I really like the Grayson Robin and Batman is cool but not my fav superhero ever. ) but I'm not watching a movie about the villains because I honestly think they're disgusting portrayals of psychosis that isn't typical in anyone but has to be labeled schizophrenia and bipolar and a bunch of other things when it's not. :/
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Post by NightBlade on May 28, 2016 2:54:14 GMT
Dang really? Those two are the only characters I like in DC and I despise Batman. Joker and Quinn are most certainly psychopaths, there's no questioning that, but that's not meant to be their defining trait. As for bipolar and schizophrenia, I don't think those are commonly assigned to those characters?
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Post by WookieeElf on May 28, 2016 2:58:17 GMT
Considering I'm a newbie to DC, I have to say that Heath Ledger is my favorite Joker, and Affleck is a pretty decent Batman.
I'm interested in Suicide Squad, but I'm gonna let my dad screen it first. Don't want to walk in to the theater without knowing what was coming.
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Post by NightBlade on May 28, 2016 3:13:56 GMT
Heath Ledger was amazing *sniff sniff* And I've never met a Batman that I liked.. except maybe Affleck. But not many people would agree with my reasons
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Post by jliessa44 on May 28, 2016 3:15:54 GMT
I really really hate them with a passion. I would call them psychopaths, but I'll be honest I haven't studied because (as I may have mentioned) I hate them. I've heard in person a lot people saying the other two. Joker gets schizophrenia a lot because most people have no idea what they're talking about. But that's not my beef. My problem is that all of Batman's villains are "criminally insane" in ways that stigmatize mental illness.
But to each his own I guess. Solomon Grundy I didn't mind as much because I found him confusing enough to be interesting. I don't remember much about Two Face honestly, but I really really hated Scarecrow. (And I realize they're not SS <Or are they? I don't remember who's on it.> but I'm talking about batman baddies in general.)
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Post by NightBlade on May 28, 2016 3:29:56 GMT
YeahI I don't care for anything DC. Hate Batman, generallt dislike most. But whatever people may misunderstand about them I can't help but love those two madhats x) And I guess I dunno about scarecrow and 2face?
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Post by Ellron Silvertree on May 28, 2016 9:46:24 GMT
I like both Marvel and DC, and I'm a particular fan of the Flash. The problem I have with suicide squad is how it sort of greys morality. We already have a problem in today's society about liking villains over heroes, and it muddies the water when it comes to understanding the dichotomy of good vs. evil. Having complicated characters is great, but it makes people try and justify evil acts(can anyone say Loki fangirls?).
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Post by jliessa44 on May 28, 2016 13:10:32 GMT
*Cough* *Cough* I disagree with you on Loki for many reasons. One being that he's never been written to be a totally evil character (like those on the suicide squad) and had always been played as someone who's not really sure which side they're on yet. Yeah he's a villain, but I think he's an excellent character. Because regardless of what people want to say, the world isn't black and white.
I actually disagree with you on the suicide squad too. Saying you can't protray villains doing good things isn't true to life where bad people do good things and good people do bad things. Honestly the black and white depiction of people in Christian fiction is one reason I don't read much of it anymore. And before you say it's biblical, I will tell you I disagree with that view. Yes the Bible lists things as sins, yes it gives us a hand book for what's right and wrong, but no it doesn't say that sinners are eviler people than we are. We just have God's grace to cover our sins. So saying a good person always has to do good, and a bad person always has to do bad is wrong I feel.
“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it speaketh to them that are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for through the law cometh the knowledge of sin. But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:” Romans 3:19-24 ASV
Also before you say it, I'm not a fangirl, but I am a fan. And there's a huge difference. I don't have an obsessive crush, and I don't try to justify his actions. Though I do believe he wasn't working under his own willpower in Avengers. I can explain, but it's kinda long-ish so I won't unless you ask. Plus, you'll probably just assume I'm a fangirl and disregard it because that's what people do.
And please don't feel like I'm attacking you, or trying to argue/debate. Because I don't particularly feel like arguing or debating. (which is often a precursor to arguing). I was just trying to explain the reason behind my opinion so you could see the logic (or lack of, you can decide) behind the opinion and take it into consideration. Though, I'm afraid I'm incoherent on the best of days, which is already not today.
Edited to change word order
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Post by WookieeElf on May 28, 2016 13:41:38 GMT
I agree with Jliessa on the Loki thing. I'm a fan, but not the obsessive kind of fan. Yeah, he did bad stuff, and he's not the best character around...
And just because someone is a villain, doesn't mean they always do bad things. Look at Megamind, or Wreck-It Ralph. Or, if you wanna go with actual historical figures—Al Capone is a good one, I think. I'm a bit fuzzy in the details, but I just woke up so yeah. XP
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Post by Elethia Arvell on May 31, 2016 12:50:15 GMT
I'm firmly on Cap's side. Though I do see Tony's point, there is no way I could deliberately limit myself like the governments were asking them to do. It would be like signing over your freedom to do what's right in any circumstance.
*Edit: Has seen that this comment came about 20 comments too late... but still. ;D *
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