|
Post by jliessa44 on Apr 15, 2017 21:10:36 GMT
11 and up? Idk though. I was pretty mature and searching for more morally ambiguous stories at that age though.
|
|
|
Post by Warrior of Aror on Apr 16, 2017 2:07:46 GMT
I'm a little surprised at that, honestly. What's your definition of morally ambiguous?
|
|
|
Post by Aviar Goldeneagle on Apr 16, 2017 2:56:22 GMT
Leilani Sunblade: Thought I'd already posted this, but you've basically the same viewpoint as me on the differences between cussing and other sins in writing.
|
|
|
Post by jliessa44 on Apr 16, 2017 4:41:06 GMT
I'm a little surprised at that, honestly. What's your definition of morally ambiguous? Something where you have to decide for yourself what's right and what's wrong. Like there are no morals. Nothing's black or white. The villain is completely and utterly human, and there's very little difference between them and the 'hero'. Both are bad people, both are good people. Basically something that's ambiguous about morals? Not sure how else to say it. But like, even as a kid I hated being spoon fed what's right and wrong. Stories where the hero is good and the bad guy is bad always bothered me. The bad guy isn't 'bad'. They do bad things, but that doesn't mean that they don't feel justified, or even that they aren't 'justified'. I feel like children need to be exposed to ambiguity way earlier than what people want to expose them. Especially Christian homeschoolers. The kids are going to grow up and they're going to experience ambiguity and if they're not taught early, using safe resources such as books and movies while under the guidance of their parents, the kids are set up to fail. Because they're going to get out there and they're going to see that X does *bad thing* but X isn't a bad person, that means *bad thing* can't be bad. Maybe not all of them, but a large portion. But idk. That's just me.
|
|
|
Post by Warrior of Aror on Apr 16, 2017 12:14:14 GMT
Interesting. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
|
|
|
Post by jliessa44 on Apr 16, 2017 15:57:36 GMT
Lol. You're welcome, I suppose. Oh, and I forgot to post my disclaimer last night, but my opinions are based purely on my experience growing up around people who were sheltered that way and how things have worked out for them compared to me. And I was sheltered, but I was also exposed to things carefully under parental watch once I was older.
|
|
|
Post by Warrior of Aror on Apr 16, 2017 23:45:19 GMT
I do understand and agree with how you don't like characters who are all good or all bad in some books. But I'm somewhat confused because you talked about things in which you say one has to decide what's right or wrong. What's an example of that? I absolutely agree that stereotyping people as all good or all bad isn't truthful (or effective storytelling), but if something is morally ambiguous, it's still a moral issue and therefore subject to moral law, right? In other words, just because "good people" have bad in them, there's still one moral law that makes certain things good or bad. And no matter the justification, they are still bad.
If humans are completely moral beings, if something is "utterly human," then it is "utterly moral" and therefore how can it be ambiguous? If you're saying that everyone's flawed in some way, that we all have good and bad in us, I certainly agree with you. And I absolutely agree that that needs to be represented in children's fiction. It would be completely deceitful and, as you said, harmful, to take that out.
If I understand correctly, you're just wanting kids' books to be more truthful. Truthful in our humanness. And in being truthful there must be a distinct moral law (though characters can cross it) in that there cannot be competing truths. Because several people I've encountered consider moral ambiguity synonymous with 'truth is relative' or at least that something being a necessary evil legitimizes the evil itself. That's not something I want to put into a kids' book.
This is equivalent to this Star Wars analogy -- "Rey, you must embrace both the Light and the Dark Side of the Force!! It is the only way to peace in the galaxy!"
|
|
|
Post by jliessa44 on Apr 17, 2017 0:21:49 GMT
Oh. lol. I get it now. Yeah. There are definitely moral absolutes. I just feel like it should be less cut and dried in novels so the kids figure the truths out for themselves. And I mean, I do believe there are a lot of gray areas, muddied waters if you will, but that doesn't mean that there's not an absolute truth.
And tbh idk that I believe in necessary evils. I believe in inevitable evils that you can't stop, but necessary? Not really.
|
|
|
Post by Warrior of Aror on Apr 17, 2017 1:24:39 GMT
Never thought of necessary evils being not necessarily necessary, but some of them inevitable. I think I agree.
Anyhow, very enlightening discussion! Thanks!
|
|
|
Post by jliessa44 on Apr 17, 2017 2:31:40 GMT
Lol. XD I'm glad it makes sense. Sometimes I say things and people tell me I'm splitting hairs. Like the difference between excuses and explainations. >.< Thank you for discussing it with me. I always enjoy talking about such things. But it's hard to do sometimes without hurt feelings.
|
|
|
Post by Warrior of Aror on Apr 17, 2017 13:42:37 GMT
So do I. And yeah, it is difficult to do talk about a lot of things without being offensive. It's an art. XD
|
|
|
Post by jliessa44 on May 15, 2017 18:56:46 GMT
Sooo. Something I've been thinking about lately is annoying things about writing, and art in general really. Idk. I love drawing/painting/writing, but I also get really annoyed by it easily. Maybe because I do it mostly for entertainment and less as a job? Idk. I was just wondering if anyone else had this problem.
|
|
|
Post by Idk323 on May 15, 2017 19:41:55 GMT
Hm. I only really get annoyed with drawing. Writing is fine just so long as I can get everything figured out in a reasonable time. I don't paint often enough for it to be annoying, but the problem with painting is I can never figure out what to paint. I definitely get annoyed by drawing, though most of it is because I'm a perfectionist who doesn't like to be consistent. So I don't do it often enough to actually get good at it.
I think what really annoys me is just wanting to be creative in general, and not knowing what to write/draw, or feeling like it won't be any good if I tried it. But I haven't felt like that for a while, probably because I don't have as much free time anymore.
|
|
|
Post by Leilani Sunblade on May 16, 2017 0:01:31 GMT
Writing, not really. Of course, that's partially because most of my writing is 1st drafts and I know they don't have to be perfect. Photography, yes, because I can never get the image in the camera to quite match up with what's in my head.
|
|
|
Post by NightBlade on May 16, 2017 0:24:19 GMT
Sooo. Something I've been thinking about lately is annoying things about writing, and art in general really. Idk. I love drawing/painting/writing, but I also get really annoyed by it easily. Maybe because I do it mostly for entertainment and less as a job? Idk. I was just wondering if anyone else had this problem. I feel it when I get myself into ruts of drawing similar things, especially with drawing certain things being my college career, so I'll sometimes go on Pinterest and find a really inspiring picture of something I'm not good at drawing, and determine to get good at it, and I'll copy it like 5 times. As for writing, more or less the same deal. I'll get a random idea, start writing, knowing and accepting I won't finish whatever the impulsive thing is, but it just feels good to get the practice of writing.
|
|
|
Post by jliessa44 on May 16, 2017 2:01:16 GMT
Idk323 Yeah. I think wanting to be creative with no direction is a large part of why I get annoyed. I think also for me I just have like zero motivation to push past the speed bump sometimes... Leilani Sunblade Tbh, photography is my bane. Lol. XD I don't understand it. But yeah. I think that's the other big thing. It hardly ever turns out how I want it. I think it's easier for me to deal with that problem in art rather than writing, but that's probably because I've been drawing since I could hold a pencil and writing only since twelve or thirteen. And having more experience with visual art forms I'm better able to guide it. Like with writing I always start out with something that I like and then by the time I get 10-15k in it's like a completely different book and I hate it and it's hard to get past that. With art I can realize that "hey, I don't like that color palette" easier than I can realize that "hey, I really don't like that subplot or plot point. And that scene is going to lead you down a slippery slope to ruin." :/ NightBlade. Yeah. I do something similar, though usually I aim for something I do well to ease into it. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. >.< It's always so hit and miss. Idk. Lol. I think I need more discipline, but when I try to power through my annoyance I burn out and make dumb things.
|
|
|
Post by NightBlade on May 16, 2017 2:03:32 GMT
jliessa44 Yeah, discipline xD what even is. What are we, adults? *laughs* *cries* I feel, I feel. Btwwwww....any chance of Kane in the forecast?
|
|
|
Post by jliessa44 on May 16, 2017 2:09:35 GMT
Lol. xD I don't feel like an adult. 'M like two years into college and I'm just like *faceplant* Jus' gonna lay here 'til I wake up from this nightmare and can go run around and play capture the flag at 4-H again.
Uhhhmm. Maybe. I've been thinking about maybe doing something with him again maaaaaaybe one of his brothers but idk. I've yet to find the right Pinterest prompt. >.< I usually use prompts for short stories bc why not.
|
|
|
Post by NightBlade on May 16, 2017 2:11:58 GMT
Aheh, I knowwww what you meeeeeean X_______X I just finished my junior year and I'm like "oh bloody hades is it over yet???"
Cooool. How about CCaC? I have a board dedicated to writing tools and prompts. We follow on Pinterest, yeah?
|
|
|
Post by jliessa44 on May 16, 2017 2:45:39 GMT
I know. Sometimes I rethink going for my masters eventually. >.>
ehhhhhhhhhhhhh. Maybe soon? I'm finally off on summer break with no obligations (until I get a job, which I'm dragging my feet over) so maybe in a few weeks I'll be up to it? XD
Yeah we do. I'm pretty sure. I've been spotty with my Pinterest use lately (gasp) because I had to take Pinterest off my phone. Needed to take a step back. Lol. It's such a time suck. But I'll check out what you've got.
|
|
|
Post by NightBlade on May 16, 2017 2:54:10 GMT
Eeeeeew yeah....
Heheh okey dokey
Yeah I thought so. Nooooo tragic! Haha K coo
|
|
|
Post by Warrior of Aror on May 16, 2017 13:14:20 GMT
NightBlade, your last post, if read without context of the rest of the conversation, sounds very schizophrenic. XD I get annoyed by writing all the time. It's at least a monthly occurrence for me to feel very flustered by it. It almost always comes from either the story on paper doesn't match the awesomeness in my mind (and usually solved by rewriting it a dozen times, or more accurately envisioning the story in my mind) or it comes from my comparing the story to the stories of fantastic authors. The solution to that is simply to shut up the whining, stop being so self-centered, and keep trying to write a good story in its own right. @ NightBlade again: Wait, does this mean we won't ever get to see the end of Caedmon's story?
|
|
|
Post by Leilani Sunblade on May 16, 2017 14:10:21 GMT
jliessa44: And I don't entirely understand art (as in painting, drawing, etc.), so we're even there. xD I guess I can see what you mean about the story turning out different than you planned? That's happened to me a few times. But it hasn't happened that often, and sometimes when the story turns out different from what I planned, it ends up (in my opinion) better. But that's just me. Photography I find harder to salvage because there's only so much you can do in Photoshop and going back to the scene usually isn't an option, while in writing, you can completely start over if you need to.
|
|
|
Post by NightBlade on May 16, 2017 21:34:47 GMT
NightBlade, your last post, if read without context of the rest of the conversation, sounds very schizophrenic. XD @ NightBlade again: Wait, does this mean we won't ever get to see the end of Caedmon's story? Hahahaha xD Oh naw don't worry, I'm still chippign away at Caedmon's tale bit by bit. Been doing 4% writing and 97% plotting/worldbuilding xD and the other 6% sucking at math.
|
|
|
Post by jliessa44 on May 16, 2017 23:23:44 GMT
Warrior of Aror. Yeah. For me it's kinda like that. But I think it's less frustration because I'm comparing myself to other people and more I know what the story needs, but I don't know how to do it. Plot is my weak point, world building and character are my strength. (Well, I imagine them to be. Clearly I could be deluded and I'm bad at one or both of those.) Leilani Sunblade. XD At least you understand my pain. Most people just go "I don't understand any of it" or they act shocked that I don't understand photography because I draw and they're similar, right? Lol For me it's not that I don't like the story that I get. But it's not the one I wanted so I get frustrated. Not being able to start your photography over would be crazy annoying though.
|
|
|
Post by Warrior of Aror on May 16, 2017 23:33:51 GMT
NightBlade 4% writing, 97% worldbuilding, 6% math... that checks out. Glad to hear you're still working on it!
|
|
|
Post by Leilani Sunblade on May 17, 2017 0:56:29 GMT
jliessa44: Oh stars. I am so sorry; I've never gotten a comment like that. I mean, yeah, they use similar principles of composition, and maybe some of the principles of color are the same as well? (IDK for sure.) But actual skills/techniques necessary are definitely different. Also, I feel like drawing requires waaaaay more patience . . . which is part of why I like photography. xD Ah. I suppose I can understand that. And yeah, it is. Particularly when you really like a particular shot and then you go to edit it and you realize your camera was crooked, and cropping it so it's not crooked either cuts too much or leaves blank space in the corners that you have to edit in. Or you realize that there were water drops on your lens in the middle of the picture. I mean, it'd be one thing if they were in the sky or the grass, but you can't hide it when it's on part of the subject.
|
|
|
Post by jliessa44 on May 17, 2017 1:10:21 GMT
Yeah. I mean, the theory of it is basically the same (I think? I truly do fail at photography) like composition, rhythm, balance, contrast, value, color hue, saturation, etc. But techniques are vaaaaastly different. And let's be real, I struggle to get a non grainy iPhone pic. Lol.
That would probably kill me. I'll be honest. I get irritated enough when I have to scrap a drawing. Lol. At least with that I can start over with a new piece of paper.
|
|
|
Post by Leilani Sunblade on May 17, 2017 2:13:42 GMT
Actually, the non-grainy iPhone pic probably says more about the quality of your phone camera than your skill or lack thereof . . . On my old phone, I couldn't get a halfway decent picture even in perfect lighting, gorgeous scene, etc.
Yeah. You learn to deal with it, though. Fix what you can; be a little more careful next time.
|
|
|
Post by jliessa44 on May 17, 2017 3:21:16 GMT
I'd like to think that. But my sister can get amazing pictures with the same phone. >.< I think it's just me...... oh well. Lol.
I suppose that makes sense.
|
|