Post by Jag Starblade on Mar 17, 2015 3:40:05 GMT
The 29 last posts from The Underground (the 30th post back was just a short reply and didn't make sense by itself):
Lady Kathrynn:
Oi! I forgot about this!
I think we are trying to same the same thing here. God is not changed by time, it has no effect on time, and he is not limited by time. He is outside of time. When we say "He sees the future" it IS the future to us, because we are finite, and confined by time. I don't think it is like "the future" or "the past" because God is outside the confines of time. Comprendo?
NightBlade the Outcast:
Yep!
A thought that came to me during work today...sure, those Romans verses certainly imply predestination, but shouldn't those scriptures (letters, to be exact) be understood in context to absolute points in Scripture, such as God's perfection, His love for mankind and the explicitly stated fact that He wished all to be saved?
Instead, people seem to take those two different sides and use them as opposites, and bunkers to bombard the other side when they are both speaking from the same Scriptures! The two parts should be understandable as one concept in agreement.
Lady Kathrynn:
Right. Also, as I've been studying Koine Greek, I've noticed that just about every word in the Greek language has multiple meanings. Some even have completely different meanings! There is one word used over 500 times in the Greek New Testament that means "but" and "and" and you have to decide which one is right by the context of the word!
Warrior of Aror:
About Pharaoh: agapegeek.com/2010/05/01/does-god-cause-some-peoples-hearts-to-be-hard-what-about-pharaoh/
"First, I need to ask you: Do you believe that God is omniscient, and has knowledge of everything that was, is, and is to come (I just need a simple yes or no answer)?"
"Often times people confuse foreknowledge with predestination. Just because God knows your reaction to some event that happens in your life, does not mean that God caused it to happen that way." *Excerpt from the above article.
See I don't think any Christian will say God is blinded by time as we are. He is outside of time and therefore knows everything that has happened within our bottle of time.
"Why does God allow there to be evil? That has no relevance to predestination vs. free will
Not at all. It has an enormous impact. I'm taking a firm stance right at this very point. If we are merely robots in the grand scheme of things, why does God allow there to be evil? Perhaps I should rephrase it though. If God has predestined our fate, why do humans sin?
God intended for us to be perfect. When Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden, God was angry. He cursed us because of our sin.
Genesis 3:
16 To the woman he said,
“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.”
17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’
“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”
In fact, read all of the Garden of Eden story. It was Adam and Eve's choice to eat the fruit - God did not plan it. Humans went from God's image, his perfect creation, to a sinful people God eventually destroyed in the Flood. That's why Genesis 3 is called "the Fall". Our sin caused him grief, and for that he cursed us.
Now just look three chapters further.
Genesis 6:
1 When human beings began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years.”
This is a prophecy of doom. God has left it up to humans to choose their fate. It says that God is no longer going to contend with humans. It says nothing about predestination, only that God is angry with the wayward path humans have taken.
Now look a few verses further down.
5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.
Reread verse 8. Now read this.
9 This is the account of Noah and his family.
Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God.
Noah was different from all the others because he chose to walk with the Lord. God did not chose him to be the one man (along with the fam) to survive the Flood. God intended to destroy all of humanity for our sins.
If God had predestined our lives, why does he allow people to sin?
Our sin caused him grief, and for that he destroyed us.
God gives us the choice to accept Him or to accept Sin. Now He certainly has great impact on our lives. Pharaoh's heart was hardened by past and current events of his lifetime, but God did not control Pharaoh. He had impact, but not control.
Neither am I saying that he couldn't have control, but that he allowed Pharaoh an open choice, as I believe he gives us all.
Foreknowledge is not the same as predefined lives. God knows everything about us, what we have done, what we will do, but he gives us a choice in it.
If he didn't? Well I suppose if everyone's lives were defined by God that would have a few ramifications. If predestination were true, what would that mean? Well, people's lives would be the predefined orders of God. What would be the result?
Adolf Hitler would be damned to Heck for obeying God . . .
CNGoodhue:
KathrynnKathrynn: Comprendo. ;P NightBlade: Hmm...I think I kind of get what you are saying, but could you please elaborate? What does "the two parts should be understandable as one concept in agreement" mean? Sorry. I'm tired, and my mind is stuck on Doctor Who at the moment. XD @woa: Really long post. O.o
Lady Kathrynn:
Hm, Aror, I understand exactly what you're saying, and I... I think I agree.
CNGoodhue:
I don't have anytime to reply to everything you have above (I think I'm going to have to end up bowing out; sorry, but this debate is just literally eating up my time). However, I will answer your main question.
"If God had predestined our lives, why does he allow people to sin?"
Why did He create Lucifer?
Again, your question doesn't have any impact on predestination. I could very well ask you the same question: if God gives us free choice, why does He allow people to sin?
EDIT:
I think I agree with NightBlade on this.
"...people seem to take those two different sides and use them as opposites, and bunkers to bombard the other side when they are both speaking from the same Scriptures!"
NightBlade the Outcast:
How bout the rest of what I said?
As to your reply to Kathyrnn, the difference is actually phenomenal...He allows us to make choices, but He does a whole stinking lot to point us in the right direction! (Which doesn't really make sense if the choice isn't really ours...)
And your question about Lucifer is simply answered...Lucifer had a choice like the rest of us!!!
CNGoodhue:
To be honest, I think I'm still needing clarification of what you meant (confused about the bold parts below). xD
"A thought that came to me during work today...sure, those Romans verses certainly imply predestination, but shouldn't those scriptures (letters, to be exact) be understood in context to absolute points in Scripture, such as God's perfection, His love for mankind and the explicitly stated fact that He wished all to be saved?
Instead, people seem to take those two different sides and use them as opposites, and bunkers to bombard the other side when they are both speaking from the same Scriptures! The two parts should be understandable as one concept in agreement."
NightBlade the Outcast:
See my edit. What do you want me to clarify, exactly?
CNGoodhue:
I saw your edit, and I literally almost sent my reply...then I realized that if I was ever going to bow out, I couldn't participate in the debate anymore. XD
I just don't understand if you are saying that predestination and free will "should be understandable as one concept in agreement", or if you are saying the exact opposite.
NightBlade the Outcast:
Oh come on xP you know you don't really want to leave!
Um, that was referring to the two parts of scripture that seem to say two different things. They can't, is my point. So the suggestive parts should be held in context against the definitive parts, like God's perfection of character, His love, wanting all to be saved, etc.
CNGoodhue:
But I have to. Oh. I know what you're saying now.
NightBlade the Outcast:
Nuh uh xP Yup
CNGoodhue:
One last reply, I guess. -.-
"And your question about Lucifer is simply answered...Lucifer had a choice like the rest of us!!!"
But I wasn't asking "Why did Lucifer sin?"; I was asking why God created him, knowing in full what the disastrous outcome would be.
For the record, while I don't believe that humans have free will, I do believe that angels have it.
EDIT:
Also, the few verses I mentioned in Romans about predestination aren't the only verses about it in the Bible (Philippians, 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thessalonians, Colossians, Ephesians, 1 Corinthians, Titus, 2 Timothy, 1 Peter, 2 Peter, Acts).
Okay, I'm done replying now. XD Can't get sucked in again. Ha ha.
NightBlade the Outcast:
*grins* Um, for the same reason why did God create the rest of humankind? Why not create a bunch of happy robot people that do everything right? There's no glory or love to be found from mindless beings...God wanted us to choose to love Him. Wouldn't you?
CNGoodhue:
This time I'm not replying. I shall use all of my restraint. XD
NightBlade the Outcast:
No don't! I'm begging you! There are no other opponents!
CNGoodhue:
You guys may or may not know it, but usually when I debate I lose peace of mind, and when I lose peace of mind I get stressed, and when I get stressed I get glum and kind of ticked at everything, and when that happens...well, nothing's good. DX Hence, one of the reasons I avoid stuff like this.
Lady Kathrynn:
Okay Goodhue, but one more question.
Why would you believe angels have free will, and humans don't? I think having free will is a wonderful thing, a privilege that God would give to all, or to whom he thought was the more worthy. The Bible says that we are above the angels. That we will judge them in the end times, doesn't it? So why would they have more privilege than we do?
CNGoodhue:
*shrugs* It's just what I was always taught. But now you've encouraged me to look further into the subject.
To sum up what I believe (not looking for debate)...
I believe in the Doctrine of Predestination; I believe that God is omniscient (all-knowing); I believe that God "has mercy on whom He has mercy" and "hardens whomever He wills"; and I also believe that "it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy".
I just wanted to state that because I felt like I was a little disorganized.
Lady Kathrynn:
I'm glad we have encouraged you to look further, and I respect your point of view, my friend.
Warrior of Aror:
Lady Kathrynn: Glad to here it.
I know you're stepping out of the debate, CN, but I kinda have to reply.
Again, your question doesn't have any impact on predestination. I could very well ask you the same question: if God gives us free choice, why does He allow people to sin?
But it does impact predestination . . . that's what my whole last post was about - or part of it, anyway.
And as for your question, it answers itself. It's not a question of why he allows us to sin, then.
Freedom means the option of choice, essentially. When we do wrong things, it is our fault, then, that we sinned. Not God's. And that's why he allows sin to exist.
But He offers us love. He wants to forgive, if only we ask for it.
That, at least, is a theologically solid standpoint from a non-calvinist view. Love cannot exist if we are mere robots. God's love would be nothing because it doesn't mean anything.
I can't bring myself to believe that.
But anyway I guess the debate's over so I'll slink back to my hole. O.o
EDIT: By the way CN, forgive me if I ever sound harsh or demeaning. I did not mean to imply that in any way.
CNGoodhue:
Kathrynn: And I yours. @woa: Naw. I'm not offended. ;P
Lady Kathrynn:
Oi! I forgot about this!
I think we are trying to same the same thing here. God is not changed by time, it has no effect on time, and he is not limited by time. He is outside of time. When we say "He sees the future" it IS the future to us, because we are finite, and confined by time. I don't think it is like "the future" or "the past" because God is outside the confines of time. Comprendo?
NightBlade the Outcast:
Yep!
A thought that came to me during work today...sure, those Romans verses certainly imply predestination, but shouldn't those scriptures (letters, to be exact) be understood in context to absolute points in Scripture, such as God's perfection, His love for mankind and the explicitly stated fact that He wished all to be saved?
Instead, people seem to take those two different sides and use them as opposites, and bunkers to bombard the other side when they are both speaking from the same Scriptures! The two parts should be understandable as one concept in agreement.
Lady Kathrynn:
Right. Also, as I've been studying Koine Greek, I've noticed that just about every word in the Greek language has multiple meanings. Some even have completely different meanings! There is one word used over 500 times in the Greek New Testament that means "but" and "and" and you have to decide which one is right by the context of the word!
Warrior of Aror:
About Pharaoh: agapegeek.com/2010/05/01/does-god-cause-some-peoples-hearts-to-be-hard-what-about-pharaoh/
"First, I need to ask you: Do you believe that God is omniscient, and has knowledge of everything that was, is, and is to come (I just need a simple yes or no answer)?"
"Often times people confuse foreknowledge with predestination. Just because God knows your reaction to some event that happens in your life, does not mean that God caused it to happen that way." *Excerpt from the above article.
See I don't think any Christian will say God is blinded by time as we are. He is outside of time and therefore knows everything that has happened within our bottle of time.
"Why does God allow there to be evil? That has no relevance to predestination vs. free will
Not at all. It has an enormous impact. I'm taking a firm stance right at this very point. If we are merely robots in the grand scheme of things, why does God allow there to be evil? Perhaps I should rephrase it though. If God has predestined our fate, why do humans sin?
God intended for us to be perfect. When Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden, God was angry. He cursed us because of our sin.
Genesis 3:
16 To the woman he said,
“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.”
17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’
“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”
In fact, read all of the Garden of Eden story. It was Adam and Eve's choice to eat the fruit - God did not plan it. Humans went from God's image, his perfect creation, to a sinful people God eventually destroyed in the Flood. That's why Genesis 3 is called "the Fall". Our sin caused him grief, and for that he cursed us.
Now just look three chapters further.
Genesis 6:
1 When human beings began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years.”
This is a prophecy of doom. God has left it up to humans to choose their fate. It says that God is no longer going to contend with humans. It says nothing about predestination, only that God is angry with the wayward path humans have taken.
Now look a few verses further down.
5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.
Reread verse 8. Now read this.
9 This is the account of Noah and his family.
Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God.
Noah was different from all the others because he chose to walk with the Lord. God did not chose him to be the one man (along with the fam) to survive the Flood. God intended to destroy all of humanity for our sins.
If God had predestined our lives, why does he allow people to sin?
Our sin caused him grief, and for that he destroyed us.
God gives us the choice to accept Him or to accept Sin. Now He certainly has great impact on our lives. Pharaoh's heart was hardened by past and current events of his lifetime, but God did not control Pharaoh. He had impact, but not control.
Neither am I saying that he couldn't have control, but that he allowed Pharaoh an open choice, as I believe he gives us all.
Foreknowledge is not the same as predefined lives. God knows everything about us, what we have done, what we will do, but he gives us a choice in it.
If he didn't? Well I suppose if everyone's lives were defined by God that would have a few ramifications. If predestination were true, what would that mean? Well, people's lives would be the predefined orders of God. What would be the result?
Adolf Hitler would be damned to Heck for obeying God . . .
CNGoodhue:
KathrynnKathrynn: Comprendo. ;P NightBlade: Hmm...I think I kind of get what you are saying, but could you please elaborate? What does "the two parts should be understandable as one concept in agreement" mean? Sorry. I'm tired, and my mind is stuck on Doctor Who at the moment. XD @woa: Really long post. O.o
Lady Kathrynn:
Hm, Aror, I understand exactly what you're saying, and I... I think I agree.
CNGoodhue:
I don't have anytime to reply to everything you have above (I think I'm going to have to end up bowing out; sorry, but this debate is just literally eating up my time). However, I will answer your main question.
"If God had predestined our lives, why does he allow people to sin?"
Why did He create Lucifer?
Again, your question doesn't have any impact on predestination. I could very well ask you the same question: if God gives us free choice, why does He allow people to sin?
EDIT:
I think I agree with NightBlade on this.
"...people seem to take those two different sides and use them as opposites, and bunkers to bombard the other side when they are both speaking from the same Scriptures!"
NightBlade the Outcast:
How bout the rest of what I said?
As to your reply to Kathyrnn, the difference is actually phenomenal...He allows us to make choices, but He does a whole stinking lot to point us in the right direction! (Which doesn't really make sense if the choice isn't really ours...)
And your question about Lucifer is simply answered...Lucifer had a choice like the rest of us!!!
CNGoodhue:
To be honest, I think I'm still needing clarification of what you meant (confused about the bold parts below). xD
"A thought that came to me during work today...sure, those Romans verses certainly imply predestination, but shouldn't those scriptures (letters, to be exact) be understood in context to absolute points in Scripture, such as God's perfection, His love for mankind and the explicitly stated fact that He wished all to be saved?
Instead, people seem to take those two different sides and use them as opposites, and bunkers to bombard the other side when they are both speaking from the same Scriptures! The two parts should be understandable as one concept in agreement."
NightBlade the Outcast:
See my edit. What do you want me to clarify, exactly?
CNGoodhue:
I saw your edit, and I literally almost sent my reply...then I realized that if I was ever going to bow out, I couldn't participate in the debate anymore. XD
I just don't understand if you are saying that predestination and free will "should be understandable as one concept in agreement", or if you are saying the exact opposite.
NightBlade the Outcast:
Oh come on xP you know you don't really want to leave!
Um, that was referring to the two parts of scripture that seem to say two different things. They can't, is my point. So the suggestive parts should be held in context against the definitive parts, like God's perfection of character, His love, wanting all to be saved, etc.
CNGoodhue:
But I have to.
Oh. I know what you're saying now.NightBlade the Outcast:
Nuh uh xP Yup
CNGoodhue:
One last reply, I guess. -.-
"And your question about Lucifer is simply answered...Lucifer had a choice like the rest of us!!!"
But I wasn't asking "Why did Lucifer sin?"; I was asking why God created him, knowing in full what the disastrous outcome would be.
For the record, while I don't believe that humans have free will, I do believe that angels have it.
EDIT:
Also, the few verses I mentioned in Romans about predestination aren't the only verses about it in the Bible (Philippians, 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thessalonians, Colossians, Ephesians, 1 Corinthians, Titus, 2 Timothy, 1 Peter, 2 Peter, Acts).
Okay, I'm done replying now. XD Can't get sucked in again. Ha ha.
NightBlade the Outcast:
*grins* Um, for the same reason why did God create the rest of humankind? Why not create a bunch of happy robot people that do everything right? There's no glory or love to be found from mindless beings...God wanted us to choose to love Him. Wouldn't you?
CNGoodhue:
This time I'm not replying.
I shall use all of my restraint. XDNightBlade the Outcast:
No don't! I'm begging you! There are no other opponents!
CNGoodhue:
You guys may or may not know it, but usually when I debate I lose peace of mind, and when I lose peace of mind I get stressed, and when I get stressed I get glum and kind of ticked at everything, and when that happens...well, nothing's good. DX Hence, one of the reasons I avoid stuff like this.
Lady Kathrynn:
Okay Goodhue, but one more question.
Why would you believe angels have free will, and humans don't? I think having free will is a wonderful thing, a privilege that God would give to all, or to whom he thought was the more worthy. The Bible says that we are above the angels. That we will judge them in the end times, doesn't it? So why would they have more privilege than we do?
CNGoodhue:
*shrugs* It's just what I was always taught. But now you've encouraged me to look further into the subject.
To sum up what I believe (not looking for debate)...
I believe in the Doctrine of Predestination; I believe that God is omniscient (all-knowing); I believe that God "has mercy on whom He has mercy" and "hardens whomever He wills"; and I also believe that "it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy".
I just wanted to state that because I felt like I was a little disorganized.
Lady Kathrynn:
I'm glad we have encouraged you to look further, and I respect your point of view, my friend.
Warrior of Aror:
Lady Kathrynn: Glad to here it.
I know you're stepping out of the debate, CN, but I kinda have to reply.
Again, your question doesn't have any impact on predestination. I could very well ask you the same question: if God gives us free choice, why does He allow people to sin?
But it does impact predestination . . . that's what my whole last post was about - or part of it, anyway.
And as for your question, it answers itself. It's not a question of why he allows us to sin, then.
Freedom means the option of choice, essentially. When we do wrong things, it is our fault, then, that we sinned. Not God's. And that's why he allows sin to exist.
But He offers us love. He wants to forgive, if only we ask for it.
That, at least, is a theologically solid standpoint from a non-calvinist view. Love cannot exist if we are mere robots. God's love would be nothing because it doesn't mean anything.
I can't bring myself to believe that.
But anyway I guess the debate's over so I'll slink back to my hole. O.o
EDIT: By the way CN, forgive me if I ever sound harsh or demeaning. I did not mean to imply that in any way.
CNGoodhue:
Kathrynn: And I yours.
@woa: Naw. I'm not offended. ;P
