Theological Debate

[Jag Starblade]

I think Calvinists say that you can't lose your salvation, so if at some point you are not saved, you were never saved. (The 'P' in the TULIP - Perseverance of the Saints.)

I'm not actually a pure Calvinist, though. I'm just playing devil's advocate (Not to hint anything about Calvinists at all...)

Yes, Jesus may have died for everyone, but his gift wasn't received by everyone.

Some of the verses you quoted could still be interpreted through a Calvinist viewpoint. I don't really want to debate it though.

[Lērtāen Miklul]

Just a quick note on the predestination/free will debate, any free will we have (and I think we do have some) has to be kind of 'directly' allowed by God because he is omniscient and omnipotent, and therefore is, and always has been, perfectly aware of every decision we will make and perfectly capable of changing it.

[NightBlade]

If that is so, then what is the big black line that determines if you're saved? Can you be saved and do few good works? What defines that? Do they think that God has a formula that cuts you off at an exact point, since he predestined it after all?

(Heheh)

Where is the logic in dying for everyone when He is the one who picks who "accepts" and who doesn't? What is the logic in dying at all??

[Aviar Goldeneagle]

Whew, I made it here.

Kathrynn, If your still up for it, I wouldn't mind debating infant baptism.

If you want to, I'll start by answering what you said in your first post about infant baptism. If not, 'tis fine.

[Kirenyth Fireblade]

Predestination has no merit when applied to salvation. Rather, it makes sense when applying it to believers; i.e. destining certain Christians to do great works for the Kingdom.

EDIT: I actually know what I'm talking about now, since my parents made me write a 3-page paper on the Calvinism/Arminianism debate.

[NightBlade]

Steve Viars put it a great way in his message this morning. He said he is a Calvinist, but he believes that all are called by Christ...but not all are reached by His followers, and not all answer the call. I agree with him completely, and I can argue in his defense.

[CNGoodhue]

I don't know if this is a very debatable or controversial topic, but what about women being elders/pastors? I think I remember reading a verse somewhere that disqualified women from those roles, but I'll have to go back and find it. In the mean time, what's everyone else's opinions?

[NightBlade]

I believe that God established men as the leadership role in the family and the church. As much of a sticking point as that is nowdays...
I do admit that men used to be extremely overbearing in our society though.

[Jag Starblade]

((The verse in question is 1 Timothy 2:12. I'm not sure what I agree with regarding this matter, so I'll just wait and watch and maybe argue both sides when I see invalid points.))

[Alvar]

(On the topic of predestination)

Well my brother explains it like this: God has two wills. What He wants to happen, and what He knows will happen. If we do what He wants, then that decision overrides the other will and what would have happened if you chose the sinful path. At least in that situation.

I would say that some things are meant to happen, like the defeat of Satan, and that other things can be changed. Human lives and what happens through those can be influenced, ending with where they spend eternity. For example, the plan God has for peoples lives can either be realized by following Him, or we can fall from that plan by living apart from Him. Make sense?

(On the subject of being saved)

If someone gets saved, then they have been born again into God's family. There's nothing they can do to not be His child, just as in human families. There's nothing your child can do to make them not your child. When your child strays away from what you want for them, you work with them to bring them back to the right path. Same happens with God's family and His children. If you get saved but you stray from that path and nothing happens to bring you back, then you weren't truly born again into His family in the first place. Would you agree?

((I have a lot of fun debating XD))

[NightBlade]

That all sounds pretty much the way I see it, Steve

[Ellron Silvertree]

What if you and your child have a falling out and your child rejects you and your inheritance? In that case, would you say that your child was never really your child in the first place?

[Alvar]

Hmm... Gah. I'm not sure how to answer that. We can't compare all the things in a human family with God's family. As humans, you're still related through blood. God's family isn't the same in every way with human families.

[Sam]

Jul 16, 2015 4:16:08 GMT Ellron Silvertree said:

What if you and your child have a falling out and your child rejects you and your inheritance? In that case, would you say that your child was never really your child in the first place?

No, I'd say my child rejected me and their inheritance.

[Alvar]

Yeah, like Sam said. In the case of God's family, they're rejecting salvation which is different from losing it. They can still repent from that and come back to God, but if they continue to reject Him then ultimately, we know what happens then.

Welcome to what was formerly known as the Underground, Sam!

[Sam]

Thanks for the welcome, mate.

In the case of a believer, I don't think they can reject their own eternal salvation. When we are faithless, God remains faithful. Present salvation seems to be paired with obedience, and can be forfeit, but as a believer was chosen before the foundation of the world for good works--seems the issue of eternal salvation was settled before I came around.

[Alvar]

I don't see any reason to further enforce my argument, so I'll sit back and see how it plays out from here and join in when it looks like a good time.

Unless someone has another debatable subject to bring up?

[Sam]

Your argument, as best as I can find, is here.

<Quote> If someone gets saved, then they have been born again into God's family. There's nothing they can do to not be His child, just as in human families. There's nothing your child can do to make them not your child. When your child strays away from what you want for them, you work with them to bring them back to the right path. Same happens with God's family and His children. If you get saved but you stray from that path and nothing happens to bring you back, then you weren't truly born again into His family in the first place. Would you agree? </Quote>

Unless I missed something, that's a narrative question and not a straight up argument. It definitely could use some strengthening (don't skip leg day?)

"When your child strays away from what you want for them, you work with them to bring them back to the right path." <<You act like the "work" here is efficacious, yes? This works when someone is 2, 10, or 15. It doesn't when they are no longer in a position of obedience to their parents (though always one of honor). E.g moved out

When we sin we are off the "path" of where God wants us to be. If I snub my brother and nothing brings me to my senses that of course doesn't mean snubbing my brother was right. Not all sin brings equal consequences in life, both on a personal level and on a civic level. The idea that a believer must (is impossible not to) always return to a state of rightness to God, beyond the righteousness of Christ, or they were never a believer is completely off.

[Alvar]

I'm not saying they were never a believer, I'm saying they weren't truly born again through Christ. When you're born again, the bible says Jesus steps into your life and never leaves. He works in you and removes the past sin from your life and makes you into a new person. If someone turns back to sin and doesn't try to repent then Jesus didn't step into their life in the first place. Of course, they always have the opportunity to bring Him into their life. What I'm trying to say is that if you have Jesus in your life then you get a sense of guilt when you sin, and you want to repent because you know that you've done something wrong. Of course, it's a little different for everyone, but you know what I'm trying to say.

[Aviar Goldeneagle]

Sam: Wow, are you really Millard? Hehe. I read so much of your stuff on the old UG.
If this debate's still going, I don't mind chiming in with my thoughts. I believe someone can be a true believer in Christ, and be "saved", but can then lose that salvation, and then get it back again if they repent, etc.

[NightBlade]

I am inclined to think that your salvation is dependant on whether or not you still believe. But then again, I don't believe a true believer would ever deny God.
Hmm...

The saying is trustworthy, for: If we have died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;

I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

#confused

[Alvar]

If you're truly born again, then you wouldn't ever consider denying the God that's now working inside you. Why would the Bible say that He never leaves if you could lose your salvation after gaining it? I say that if you turn back to sin and you don't get the feeling that you need to repent then you weren't truly born again, and as such you would have to try again.

[Aviar Goldeneagle]

NightBlade: No one can snatch them out of Jesus' hand, but that doesn't mean you can't snatch yourself out of His hand--That way, both of those verses fit together.

Alvar: God is never going to leave you, you're going to have to be the one to leave Him.

[Alvar]

Yes, I know. But if He really was working in you then you wouldn't feel inclined to leave Him. Therefore, they weren't truly born again. At least that's how I see it.

I'm not saying that they can never accept God's gift of salvation, though. It's always available.
www.gotquestions.org/Christian-lose-salvation.html

This article sums up my side of this pretty well.

I don't believe that we can lose salvation if we were remade through Christ to turn away from sin. If someone proclaims to be saved but lives a sinful lifestyle, were they remade in the first place?

1 John 3:6
"No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him."

[Aviar Goldeneagle]

Hmmm, what would you say to someone who claimed they were born again, and for years they lived a life full of goodness, truly believing they were loving the Lord with all their heart. But then, after a few years, they turned away and no longer followed the Lord? Would this person have ever been saved in the first place?
It seems to me, in following what Jesus says in the parable of the sower in Matthew 13, that this person probably would have been saved. He would have been the seed that falls on rocky ground, but when trouble and tribulation comes he does not endure and turns away. That person--at least it seems to me --was saved, but then fell away when the going got tough.

As for the verse you gave, 1 John 3:6, yes, no one who abides in Christ will keep on sinning, but they may be in Christ for a long time, and then start sinning and not abide in Christ anymore. That's what Jesus seems to say in John 15 when He talks about Himself being the True Vine :

I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit...As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. (John 15:1-2,4 emphasis added)

So this seems to say that we have to abide in Jesus to remain saved. And how do we abide in Him? By producing fruit (obedience).
That's my thoughts upon the matter.

[Alvar]

Did you read that entire article?

It states multiple arguments, backed up with scripture.

"The Bible also says that anyone who departs the faith is demonstrating that he was never truly saved (1 John 2:19). He may have been religious, he may have put on a good show, but he was never born again by the power of God."

[Aviar Goldeneagle]

I skimmed through it. Would you like me to reply to all of what it says?

[Alvar]

If you want to.

[Aviar Goldeneagle]

Well I don't have time right now. Perhaps when I get back later on today from reffing some basketball games.

[Warrior of Aror]

Jul 17, 2015 2:35:40 GMT Alvar said:

If you're truly born again, then you wouldn't ever consider denying the God that's now working inside you. Why would the Bible say that He never leaves if you could lose your salvation after gaining it? I say that if you turn back to sin and you don't get the feeling that you need to repent then you weren't truly born again, and as such you would have to try again.

I won't say anything about whether you were never born again if you don't repent or not, but I will say that even the born again sometimes do deny Christ.  Peter did it three times.