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Post by Aviar Goldeneagle on Jul 20, 2015 2:09:21 GMT
NightBlade: Yes. And I just went and read over the context of 1 John 5. Is there anything in the context that seems to change what John says about mortal sin and the sin that is not mortal? Well I won't get into a debate about this now, but if you read the next verse of that passage, Ephesians 2:10, notice that Paul continues by saying "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (emphasis added) So it would appear that works do play some part. I actually think this passage describes what salvation is extremely well in just those 3 verses. It's one of my favourite passages in the Bible.
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Post by NightBlade on Jul 20, 2015 2:11:44 GMT
(Gotta get ready for bed will edit when I come back) But as a quick question Alvar how do those verses in any possible way imply that works are part of our salvation? |
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Post by Alvar on Jul 20, 2015 2:13:22 GMT
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Post by Aviar Goldeneagle on Jul 20, 2015 2:15:49 GMT
Salvation comes through faith in Jesus. When you accept Jesus as your savior, you are remade (regenerated) through Christ. The good works we do are a result of salvation, and shouldn't be tied to maintaining/gaining salvation. That's my view on it. I agree that salvation comes through faith in Jesus, although I would disagree that all you need to do is accept Christ as saviour (although that's certainly a major part of it). Anyway, that's another debate.  I would say that good works are simply the "obedience of faith". They help us maintain salvation, although never by being separated from faith. But this all goes back to whether salvation can be lost or not. So that's an issue that we would have to come to an agreement upon first. Perhaps you meant me? |
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Post by Alvar on Jul 20, 2015 2:26:28 GMT
((This is completely off topic, but can any of you guess my age?)) Aviar Goldeneagle: I doubt that we'll find a way to agree on it, 707. We can try, though. |
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Post by Aviar Goldeneagle on Jul 20, 2015 2:30:59 GMT
Um, let me see, uh, no idea... 15? Yup, or we could move on to Purgatory if you want. |
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Post by Alvar on Jul 20, 2015 2:34:06 GMT
2 years off. I'm 13, 14 in August. I think I'd rather move on to Purgatory, as long as NightBlade and Sam are cool with it too. |
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Post by NightBlade on Jul 20, 2015 2:36:31 GMT
Salvation comes through faith in Jesus. When you accept Jesus as your savior, you are remade (regenerated) through Christ. The good works we do are a result of salvation, and shouldn't be tied to maintaining/gaining salvation. That's my view on it. I agree that salvation comes through faith in Jesus, although I would disagree that all you need to do is accept Christ as saviour (although that's certainly a major part of it). Anyway, that's another debate. I would say that good works are simply the "obedience of faith". They help us maintain salvation, although never by being separated from faith. But this all goes back to whether salvation can be lost or not. So that's an issue that we would have to come to an agreement upon first. Perhaps you meant me? For your first part talking to Alvar, I would say that the debate about works is very much a part of this debate. I'd like to know on what you found your belief that works are part of salvation. Especially in light of that Ephesians verse. Which brings me to your question. Yes, I was asking you. About that Ephesians verse |
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Post by Aviar Goldeneagle on Jul 20, 2015 2:36:37 GMT
Wow, you're a good debater for your age. You know a lot. Okay, that's fine, do you want me to post on it now, or should I wait to hear back from the others? |
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Post by Alvar on Jul 20, 2015 2:43:24 GMT
I appreciate the compliment.  I don't think I'll ever be as good as Sam, though. 707 I think you should finish up with NightBlade first. |
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Post by Aviar Goldeneagle on Jul 20, 2015 2:50:26 GMT
NightBlade: For your first part talking to Alvar, I would say that the debate about works is very much a part of this debate. I'd like to know on what you found your belief that works are part of salvation. Especially in light of that Ephesians verse. Which brings me to your question. Yes, I was asking you. About that Ephesians verse Okay, first about the Ephesians verse, I was meaning there that works must play some role in our salvation, since we have been created in Christ Jesus for good works which God has prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Good works are simply obedience to God and doing what He commands. And where should I begin? There are numerous verses that talk about it. A good description of good works is found in Gal. 5:6, right in the middle of St. Paul discussing how we are not justified by law. He says " For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love." (emphasis added). That's basically it there. Faith working through love is a great description of good works. Another passage where this is explained further is James 2:14-26. Read it. Specifically v24 which says " You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." So works play a part in our justification. And also v26 which says " For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead." So if we have faith but not also works, then our faith is dead. That's what I would see as "losing salvation". So basically, what James seems to be saying is that we need both faith and works. Works maintain our salvation, by showing that we have a true faith. Hopefully that's a good explanation. If you want me to elaborate further I can do so. Alvar: Okay, I will. Keep learning and searching and studying. I've got to get off for now, hopefully I can get on again in another couple of hours. It's been a great conversation everyone.
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Post by Alvar on Jul 20, 2015 2:53:25 GMT
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Post by Aviar Goldeneagle on Jul 20, 2015 2:56:37 GMT
Haha, I've heard that many times before. I may respond to it, or I may post another article about James, I'll see. Seeya.  |
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Post by Warrior of Aror on Jul 20, 2015 3:01:01 GMT
In regards to Warrior of Aror you need to be real careful bringing content into this discussions then trying to get off with saying we've covered the issue. You can do better than that, champ! Millard, I think you've misunderstood me a bit. I was replying to an isolated part of Alvar's post, and I don't believe there is anything wrong with what I said. Nor did I say that we had covered the issue. |
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Barie
Elf
Crazy out of the loop nowadays. Old age gets us all.
Posts: 16 
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Post by Barie on Jul 20, 2015 3:02:19 GMT
Aviar Goldeneagle Goldeneagle, are you catholic? Or is someone here catholic? Skimming through I'm seeing some catholic sounding principles.
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Post by NightBlade on Jul 20, 2015 3:05:03 GMT
Aviar Goldeneagle sorry should have quoted your post here Right, He made us to do good works...to glorify Him. Sin became our default by Satan's design and not His. How does this make works necessary for salvation? Right. I see that as meaning our faith through His love. What else would it mean, our love? "This is love, not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent His son" How is "justification" equated with "salvation"? And yes, I believe works should be evidence of our faith. There's a major difference (EDIT: I'd like a good 7 or so hours of sleep before getting up for work. Night guys!)
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Post by Aviar Goldeneagle on Jul 20, 2015 9:53:43 GMT
Aviar Goldeneagle Goldeneagle, are you catholic? Or is someone here catholic? Skimming through I'm seeing some catholic sounding principles. Yup, I'm Catholic. NightBlade: It shows that they are an integral part of salvation, since, after we are initially saved, God wants us to walk in these good works. Well God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit that has been given to us. But it's still our love, given to us by God. It's us showing our love to God. But it is God's love in the first place. It's supernatural love, and we only have it because God gives it to us. It's ours but it comes from Him. It's the same with our works, actually. The only reason we can do these acts of obedience towards God is because God loves us so much that He gives us the grace to enable us to do these good works. It's all because of Him. Salvation from beginning to end is all a gift of God's grace. We can say that we are saved by grace alone. In the way the Bible uses the term, if one is "justified" then they are in a state of friendship with God and are thus "saved". I believe that there's actually not such a major difference as would first appear. I used to think that too, but after talking to a Protestant friend of mine about this very topic we actually found we're very close and we came to an agreement. I think that once you get down to the details, we're very close. So we'll see. |
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Post by Aviar Goldeneagle on Jul 21, 2015 1:10:33 GMT
Alvar: Hopefully fourteen hours apart doesn't count as a double post. Okay, in regards to the article you linked to, basically what they're saying is that if we have true "saving faith" then that will be demonstrated by the works we do, although the works themselves don't actually play any part in our salvation and justification. However, in James 2:24, it says "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." (emphasis added). This, I think, shows that works play a part in our justification, and also shows that we are not justified simply by "faith alone", but--as other verses of Scripture indicate we are justified by faith too (like Rom 3:28, Rom 5:1, etc)--that it's both faith and works together.
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Post by NightBlade on Jul 21, 2015 1:49:00 GMT
Aviar Goldeneagle Goldeneagle, are you catholic? Or is someone here catholic? Skimming through I'm seeing some catholic sounding principles. Yup, I'm Catholic. NightBlade: It shows that they are an integral part of salvation, since, after we are initially saved, God wants us to walk in these good works. Well God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit that has been given to us. But it's still our love, given to us by God. It's us showing our love to God. But it is God's love in the first place. It's supernatural love, and we only have it because God gives it to us. It's ours but it comes from Him. It's the same with our works, actually. The only reason we can do these acts of obedience towards God is because God loves us so much that He gives us the grace to enable us to do these good works. It's all because of Him. Salvation from beginning to end is all a gift of God's grace. We can say that we are saved by grace alone. In the way the Bible uses the term, if one is "justified" then they are in a state of friendship with God and are thus "saved". I believe that there's actually not such a major difference as would first appear. I used to think that too, but after talking to a Protestant friend of mine about this very topic we actually found we're very close and we came to an agreement. I think that once you get down to the details, we're very close. So we'll see. In one way I agree that it's God's love that motivates us to do good works, after we are saved that is. But on the other hand, that's not the only way good works are possible. There are those without faith whom measured by works, are far better than us both! In a state of friendship is one way to understand it I supposed, but friendship is not what it means to be saved. To be saved means to have salvation--by God's grace alone, while we were his enemy. He calls us family even though we have and ever will fail Him. What I'm saying is, it's ALL His grace. The only thing we ever did was choose to finally believe that truth. The way I see it, your beliefs make it seem like we actually do something to keep, if not earn, the gift that God gave. Jesus' blood forgives ALL sin, no? |
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Post by Alvar on Jul 21, 2015 2:05:45 GMT
((I just noticed I'm a Flet Marshal )) If salvation could be lost, would that not mean it could be earned as well? |
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Post by Aviar Goldeneagle on Jul 21, 2015 2:36:30 GMT
In one way I agree that it's God's love that motivates us to do good works, after we are saved that is. But on the other hand, that's not the only way good works are possible. There are those without faith whom measured by works, are far better than us both! When I say "Good Works" I am meaning "obedience to God". There will be those without faith who do "Good things", but they will not be doing these out of a love for God. When we are obedient to God, He is pleased with us, even though He Himself gave us the grace to obey Him in the first place. Because He is pleased with our obedience that He gave us the grace to be able to do, He will reward us. Romans 2:6-7 says "For [God] will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Also read Hebrews 11:4-7 which talks about God being pleased and rewarding us. I totally agree with you here that EVERYTHING in salvation is all by God's grace. Totally. Yes, to be saved means to have salvation, although I would say that the salvation can be lost too. Even when we chose to believe in Christ, that was not just us believing of our own will, it was God giving us His grace and moving in our lives. Then when we choose to respond to that grace (also through the grace of God), God then gives us more grace. From beginning to end it is all God's grace. Strictly speaking, it's not us doing it, it's God giving us the grace to do it. The way I see it, we have to keep obeying God to stay saved, otherwise He's going to cut us off. We can choose to reject the grace that God is giving us and disobey Him. It's not earning our salvation. Yes, Jesus blood forgives all sin. If you want me to elaborate on anything I can. Alvar: Yes, I don't believe James is actually meaning just that about works, based on what I said above. How so? Care to elaborate? |
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Post by Alvar on Jul 21, 2015 2:42:44 GMT
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Post by Aviar Goldeneagle on Jul 21, 2015 3:22:54 GMT
Okay.
In the article by Matt Slick, most of it I think I have already addressed before. Basically, the only verse I haven't addressed already from the other article is John 6:39. I would see that the same way as 1Tim. 2:4. God desires all to be saved and God wills that none of the people He has given Jesus to be lost. The problem is, that since God has given humans free will, they don't always do what God wills, and thus they can be lost. A Calvinist like Matt Slick would probably see these verses slightly differently because of his reformed tradition, but that's how I understand them anyway.
By the way, just wondering, but what denomination are you?
Also, I thought I would post these verses which, I believe, show that Christians can fall away. I've emailed these to a friend of mine before, so I had them stored away.
- Matt. 6:12-15, Jesus tells us to continue to pray that we will be forgiven and warns us that "if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."
- John 15:1-10, Jesus says that he is the vine and we are the branches and that "If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned."
- 1 Cor. 10:12, Paul says, "Therefore let any one who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall."
- Gal. 5:1-4, Paul says that anyone who is circumcised becomes severed from Christ and has "fallen away from grace".
- Gal. 6:7-9, Paul tells us that we will reap a harvest of eternal life if we do not lose heart and grow weary in working good.
- Col. 1:21-23, Paul tells us that we were once hostile to God but have now been reconciled and will be presented holy and blameless "provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard".
- 1 Tim. 1:19-20, Paul tells Timothy he must hold fast his faith and not make a shipwreck of his faith like Hymenaeus and Alexander.
- 1 Tim. 4:1, Paul tells us that the Spirit expressly says that in later times "some will depart from the faith".
- 1 Tim. 5:8, Paul says that if any one does not provide for his relatives, "he has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever."
- 1 Tim. 6:10, Paul says that for the love of riches "some have wandered away from the faith".
- Heb. 3:12, we are told, "Take care, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God."
- Heb. 6:4-6, we are told that "those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit" can fall away.
- Heb. 10:23-29, we are told, "Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering... For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?"
- 2 Pet. 2:20-22, Peter warns of people who "if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire."
- Rev. 22:19, John discusses the scroll of the book of Revelation and says, "if any one takes away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this scroll."
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Post by Alvar on Jul 21, 2015 5:24:20 GMT
Sorry for the late reply; I was watching Jurassic World. Good movie I fall in with the Baptist denomination. Pastor Dan Plourde states it pretty well on faith/works: Dan's son isn't his son based on his behavior, he's his son because he was born into his family. I believe it's the same with God and his children. |
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Post by Aviar Goldeneagle on Jul 21, 2015 10:19:26 GMT
Sorry for the late reply; I was watching Jurassic World. Good movie All good. I went out so I wouldn't have been able to reply anyway. Okay cool. But a son, through disobeying or wronging his parents (especially when he's older) can still disinherit himself. It's the same, I believe, with salvation. Salvation is several times spoken of as an "inheritance" (1 Pet. 1:4 for eg), but we can disinherit ourselves by deciding to not obey God, just as a son can disinherit himself by deciding to not obey his parents. Also, I was talking to my dad about this, and he pointed to the parable of the prodigal son in Luke 15 as a good example of this. The son "was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found." (v24) It would appear that this son was dead in the eyes of the father, but then was forgiven when he returned to him again. So it is, I believe, with salvation and God the Father. Also, hopefully you're not too tired of me posting all these verses, but here's a link with a whole heap of verses from the New Testament which appear (to me anyways) to say that salvation can be lost: matt1618.freeyellow.com/lose.html. Also, if you think we've exhausted this topic we can move on to Purgatory. |
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Post by Alvar on Jul 21, 2015 17:13:21 GMT
This topic is pretty exhausted. XD We'll see if NightBlade's done yet.
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Post by NightBlade on Jul 21, 2015 17:29:25 GMT
Sorry... I'm at work. I'll post an abbreviated reply sometime but feel free to proceed without me
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Post by CNGoodhue on Jul 21, 2015 20:06:54 GMT
wait are you guys talking about predestination again
omg hahaha
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Post by Alvar on Jul 21, 2015 20:36:24 GMT
No, CN. We're talking about eternal salvation. XD
Pretty soon we'll be talking about Purgatory, whenever Aviar starts it off.
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Post by NightBlade on Jul 21, 2015 20:43:41 GMT
Well I guess all I was gonna say is, we all have thrown our verses around and argued over their meaning. We all read our own beliefs into the passages, and let's be honest we're not gonna change each other's. But I want to discuss the principles, the concept that somewhere there is an invisible line of "too much sin" that will push us out of God's hand and back into He11. I repeat my question, how can there be a whole God-inspired, 63(or whatever you believe)-book story of salvation, and only some vague notion of how we are supposed to "maintain" the grace that God gave us?
Also, doesn't it really boil down to us progressively "earning" God's grace by works?
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I don't think I'll ever be as good as Sam, though. 707
