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Post by Aviar Goldeneagle on Jul 31, 2016 23:52:46 GMT
The Catholic Church believes yes. Although that's not to say we can't also pray through a human mediator.
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Post by NightBlade on Jul 31, 2016 23:56:35 GMT
Cool. I have no issue with people praying with priests or whatnot, it's just when they tell me I myself can't talk to God that I say "get thee behind me Satan" xD
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Post by Aviar Goldeneagle on Aug 1, 2016 0:04:36 GMT
Cool, then I guess that between Catholics and you this is pretty much a non-issue. The Catholic Church has always encouraged prayer directly to God. Have you heard Catholics say that we shouldn't pray directly to God?
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Post by NightBlade on Aug 14, 2016 14:16:31 GMT
Aviar Goldeneagle Nope, just that they don't do it, or that it's somehow inferior. For my Catholic friends here: what is your view, or tour institution's view, of Martin Luther? Positive, Negative, Ambivalent?
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Post by Ellron Silvertree on Aug 14, 2016 16:32:49 GMT
I can tell you that I've never heard a Catholic suggest that it's somehow inferior to talk directly God.
Actually, for that matter, most of the problems that I've heard of that people have with The Catholic Church I've never actually witnessed within it, and have only heard of it from those outside the church.
As for your question, I get that he was trying to fix issues within members of the church, but I think he did it the wrong way. You don't reform something by breaking off from it and saying "to heck with you, I'm remaking the church over here because there's too much corruption for my taste," you reform something by working within it to fix it. I don't think he was called by God to do it, because even in the Old Testament God didn't just go, "that's it, I'm gonna take this one righteous guy and make a new chosen people," every time the Israelites messed up. He guided them back on the right path.
There has been corruption in the Church, yes. But in 2000 years it's message, even if poorly delivered at times, has never changed.
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Post by Aviar Goldeneagle on Aug 15, 2016 6:19:52 GMT
My view is basically what Ellron said ^
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Post by jliessa44 on Aug 15, 2016 12:23:53 GMT
You may be forgetting the flood where He basically did that.
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Post by Kirenyth Fireblade on Aug 15, 2016 14:00:40 GMT
jliessa44 that might've been taken slightly out of context as he was talking about the Israelites. Ellron is right in saying that he never abandoned Israel, but when they strayed off he did have to recruit a new leader. Even after the first king, when he rejected Saul as king of Israel and put David in his place! And I don't think Luther's approach was faulty. The Catholic Church had added too much to the Christian faith, and the leaders of the Church had corrupted it to fit their own agendas and for personal gain. I don't agree with some of what the other reformers taught, but the way I see it Christianity was getting too complicated. As for praying through saints, I find nowhere in scripture where it even suggests that concept. However, it does say that Christ is our mediator with God the Father; our "high priest". If we go through Christ to get to the Father, why would we need to go through a saint or a priest to get to Christ?
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Post by jliessa44 on Aug 15, 2016 18:32:28 GMT
Lol. I know it was rather extreme. I was just butting in and being a pest because I'm good at it.
One of the problems I have with catholic saints is that it touches rather close to idolatry/ancestor worship. The other one I have is a goodly number of them are/were pagan gods and goddesses. I don't remember specifics and I'm at work so I can't really write a long post, plus I'm not really wanting to debate. But I can research later and post my sources.
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Post by Ellron Silvertree on Aug 15, 2016 18:58:34 GMT
No saints that I know of were ever pagan gods. It's actually impossible because all saints are either people who have died or angels.
There is a great deal of reverence for the saints. They are people to look to and emulate, because they set excellent examples for us to follow as Christians. However, everything we look to in the saints is seen with the understanding that God is where the power and glory comes from and He is where the power and glory and worship belongs. Because of how they lived and died, and because they are in heaven, they have a special connection with God that we don't have on earth. Because of this, we ask them for their prayers just as we would ask the prayers of our friends or priest. The difference is that they are in heaven and therefore have an even better connection with God.
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Post by jliessa44 on Aug 15, 2016 21:14:05 GMT
peopleof.oureverydaylife.com/catholic-saints-pagan-gods-3012.htmlThis website admits that it has happened, while others are coincidence. Which is basically what I was saying, the early saints very well could have been pagan gods/goddesses because early Christians were converting and not all left behind their past gods. www.nairaland.com/1238665/patron-saints-christendom-pagan-saintsHere's another website. You'll notice that it doesn't claim Saint Brigid didn't exist, just that when she became a saint she gained many attributes of the earlier goddess. To my mind, that makes her pagan, but idk. That one I think is iffy. Eta- I now realize that's a forum post and I'm only talking about the top one and not the comments. And I'm not claiming its views entirely, I just used it because it gave examples (and research on the examples it gave) where the other one didn't. Idk how reliable the websites are, but casual reading gave the appearance of decent legitimacy. Also, the top one appeared catholic? And for me it is basically worshiping the saints. Prayer=worship, praying to saints=worship of saints. Also, the Bible says the only way to God is through Jesus. Idk. Don't feel like I'm trying to convince you you're wrong, believe whatever you want it's no skin off my nose. I'm just laying out why I believe what I believe.
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Post by Aviar Goldeneagle on Aug 16, 2016 1:49:39 GMT
Okay, largish post coming.  Quote boxes are the people I'm responding too. Kirenyth Fireblade : When you say the Catholic Church had added to the Christian faith and was getting to complicated, what in particular are you referring to? I wouldn't deny that there were some abuses from some priests in Churchāabuses of indulgences and such, which were sometimes used for personal gain as you saidābut these abuses don't change what the Catholic Church actually taught and still teaches. Martin Luther started off by being rightly disturbed by what some Catholic priests were doing in their selling of indulgences. If he had stayed in the Church and done his best to fix the problem like other Catholics like Saint Francis de Sales did, then that would have been great and he would have been absolutely right. But instead of just stopping there, he started to turn away from Catholic *teaching*, bringing forth sola Scriptura (Scripture Alone) and sola Fide (Faith Alone). Novel doctrines that hadn't been taught before. That's what put him outside the Church. But isn't that exactly what we do when we ask other Christians to pray for us? We have an entire (awesome) thread devoted to prayer requests here on the Underground. When someone there asks for a prayer, I've never seen anyone say: āSorry, Christ is our only mediator. Just go straight to Him. You shouldn't ask me to pray for you.ā Perhaps there is a misunderstanding about what Catholics mean when they pray through Saints. When we pray through a Saint, all we are asking them to do is pray to God for us. Exactly like how we do on the prayer request thread.  The only difference is that the Saints in Heaven are glorified and completed in righteousness with God, while we here on Earth still sin. More on this below. jliessa44 : When we say we pray to Saints it is never worship. We use the old English usage of the word āprayā, which simply means āaskā. (The word āprayā is used a ton in the Protestant KJV Bible, most of them not referring to worship in any way.) I guess it can get somewhat confusing for a non-Catholic, because most Protestants think of pray and worship as synonyms. However the Catholic Church has made a clear distinction between the honour we give to Mary and the Saints, and the worship which we give to God alone. This website says that that some of the early saints could have been pagan gods or godesses but doesn't give any actual names that I could check out. Alright, so I'm not exactly sure what your view of St Brigid is, sorry. The two websites say different things about her. The first one says that she is sometimes mistaken for a pagan goddess, since she had the same name as her, and the second website commits that very mistake by saying that Saint Brigid is really a pagan goddess. If you look up St Brigid (here's one place: catholicsaints.info/saint-brigid-of-ireland/), you'll see she had the same name as this pagan goddess and probably not all the stories about her early life are accurate. But she wasn't canonised as a Saint because of her name, but because she was a righteous Christian woman. Just as an example that the sources from this website aren't very credible, they quote from āBrigit, the Goddess Who Would Not Die by Joan Lansberryā saying: "Brigit is a goddess who survived the onslaught of Christianity. So great was the love of the Irish people for this deity, that they retained all Her characteristics as a Christian saint! They would have none of Christianity if they couldn't keep Brigit. So the Catholic church had no choice but to make her a saint. She is a triple Goddess. This triple aspect of the Goddess is where Christians got the idea of the Trinity." The Irish would have nothing to do with Christianity unless they could keep their goddess, forcing the Catholic Church to make her a saint!? This writer needs to actually look at the history of the conversion of Ireland. The Christians got their idea of the Trinity from her!? The Trinity was defined in its fullness at the Council of Nicea in in 325AD, and can be found being taught all the way back to Christ. St Brigid wasn't even born until the 400s. So yeah, that's just one example from that website. Hopefully that didn't come off as angry or anything, I'm not. Also, the āPagan Saints Proto-Indo-European Religionā book, which appears to be a book by some weird religion, makes a number of false claims which the articles below should answer. Also, another one of the books cited; āBabylon Mystery religionā is actually pretty ridiculous and uses a lot of the same kind of argumentation that anti-Christians sometimes use when they try to compare Christianity to pagan religion, such as saying āThe Egyptians had a trinity. They worshiped Osiris, Isis, and Horus, thousands of years before the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost were known" (Robert Ingersoll, Why I Am an Agnostic).ā (Quoted from this article: www.catholic.com/tracts/is-catholicism-pagan which I suggest you check out.) Another article on this is: www.catholic.com/blog/jon-sorensen/the-early-church-fathers-and-paganism
In fact, the writer of āBabylon Mystery religionā, Ralph Woodrow, realised the errors in his book and no longer prints it. In fact, he wrote "The Babylon Connection" refuting much of what he wrote. More details on Ralph Woodrow's book, and the sources from which he drew on in writing his first book, can be found at this website: homepages.paradise.net.nz/mischedj/ct_babylon.html. And here is Ralph Woodrow himself talking about it: www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/did-the-catholic-church-have-its-origin-in-paganismThe first one I'm pretty sure isn't Catholic. And I personally don't think the second one very legitimate once you've looked at the sources. Totally agree with you that the only way to God is through Jesus. If you're interested, you can check out my āBible Studyā that I wrote awhile ago for a friend, which hopefully can shed some light on exactly what the Catholic view of praying to Saints is and how we see it as not being worship: Iām sure you would agree that the Church is the Body of Christ? (Rom. 12:5, 1Cor. 12:12, 1Cor. 12:27, Eph 4:12, Eph 5:23, 1Col. 1:24). Iām also sure you would agree that all Christians within the body of Christ can pray for each other. As long as we are within Christ, within the love of Christ, we are part of His body and can pray for one another. There are, I believe, numerous passages that say we should pray for one another, however one in particular would be 1Tim. 2:1-2:
āFirst of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. 3 This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,ā
Here St. Paul tells us to pray for one another, and also that this is good and pleasing in the sight of God.
Thirdly, and I believe you would also agree with this: Christ has only one body. He doesnāt have a body on Earth, and a body in Heaven. 1Cor. 12:12 tells us this too:
āFor just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ.ā (emphasis mine)
The fourth principle is (and hopefully you will agree with this): Death does not separate us in the body of Christ. As long as we are in Christ, as long as we are within the love of Christ, we are part of His body, the Church. This does not end at death. We may no longer be on Earth, but we are still part of the body of Christ in Heaven. We are also told this in Romans 8:38-39:
For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. (emphasis mine)
St. Paul here tells us that death, along with all the other things he listed, will not separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus. And if we are in the love of God, if we are in Christ Jesus, then we are in the body of Christ. So death cannot separate us from the body of Christ.
And since we are all part of this one body of Christ that cannot be separated by death, 1Cor. 12:12 tells us that:
āAs it is, there are many parts, yet one body. 21 The eye cannot say to the hand, āI have no need of you,ā nor again the head to the feet, āI have no need of you.āā
So one member of the body of Christ cannot say to another that they do not need them.
Therefore, hopefully it can be seen from what Iāve written above, that all saints, both on Earth and in Heaven, are in the body of Christ; death cannot separate us; and we are commanded to pray and intercede for each other, since that is pleasing to God.
Thatās basically a simplified version of the Catholic doctrine of the communion of saints (which we profess in the Apostlesā and Nicene Creeds.) and hopefully Iāve been able to show that asking others in the body of Christ, whether a saint on Earth or a Saint in Heaven, to pray for us is actually totally biblical.And I'm just doing the same. Really appreciate you guys being willing to talk to us about what we believe, and I think it's awesome that we can discuss our differences without getting mad at each other. |
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Post by jliessa44 on Aug 16, 2016 1:56:10 GMT
Asking a live person to pray for you is different than praying to a dead one or an angel to pray for you.
I wasn't saying the second one was true at all, just that it gave examples. I said casual read seemed decently legitimate. Meaning I skimmed it and it gave the general idea of what I was hitting at. Lol. Please don't bash me because I wasn't saying "take this as the gospel I swear it's all true".
And what I think the second one was saying is that she was real, but when she became a saint she took the role of her pagan namesake, which is what I said earlier. Or that's what I take it to mean.
Anyway. I don't believe that a dead saint is somehow more special to God than other dead people and thus has the ability to pray to God better than other dead people. I don't think that dead people can hear prayers. I know this sounds blunt, but I don't mean it that way. I promise!
I don't understand how those verses mean that praying to saints work. Yeah, we're not separated, but I've always understood that to mean death isn't the end and not that they pray for us.
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Post by NightBlade on Aug 16, 2016 2:59:05 GMT
I think I get the thing about asking the saints to pray for us. It raises the question, does God listen to or care about their prayers more than living humans? But Idk at least I get the concept, makes sense in its own right.
However, I know people that pray to their dead relatives and stuff for the same thing...arguably, all dead people in heaven hold the same status in relation to us and God?
I know back when I lost a close friend (some of you may have known her on here) several years back, part of what I did to cope was writing letters to her, saying what I wish I could have said in real life. I guess I told myself she could somehow see or hear them, though I have no real reason to believe that at all, but it helped me at the time.
I'm not trying to make a point of this at all x( just thought it was a relevant thing. Idk. I'm desperately tired xP
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Post by Ellron Silvertree on Aug 16, 2016 3:55:16 GMT
Just to clarify the Catholic understanding of a saint, because I'm getting the sense that we aren't all on the same page: To us a saint is simply anyone who is in heaven. Literally, if you are in heaven with God then you are a saint. You are in full communion with the Holy Trinity, and closer to God than you ever were on earth. The reason only some people are spoken of as saints is because those are people for whom the Church has made the determination, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that they are definitely in heaven. It was absolutely clear by the way they lived their life before they died that they are in heaven. That's also why most, if not all Christian martyrs are canonized saints.
Also, with respect to the seeing and hearing of the corporeal: the way I see it, saints are in full communion with God, so their abilities of understanding are way beyond what we have. If God is more completely aware of the universe at all given moments than anyone, would it not make sense for those in his presence who are worshipping him would also be aware of creation in a more full way than when they were flesh and blood? Speaking of which, as far as I understand it we don't exactly have flesh and blood when we die, considering that death is the separation of body and soul, so "seeing" and "hearing" really aren't the best ways to conceive of how the saints, and God, are aware of Creation.
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Post by jliessa44 on Aug 16, 2016 10:01:36 GMT
That makes more sense then actually. I mean, I still don't think so. But I definitely see how someone can believe it. Idk if I'm explaining well. I'm having a rough go of it right now.
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Post by Aviar Goldeneagle on Aug 16, 2016 11:09:16 GMT
Asking a live person to pray for you is different than praying to a dead one or an angel to pray for you. I wasn't saying the second one was true at all, just that it gave examples. I said casual read seemed decently legitimate. Meaning I skimmed it and it gave the general idea of what I was hitting at. Lol. Please don't bash me because I wasn't saying "take this as the gospel I swear it's all true". And what I think the second one was saying is that she was real, but when she became a saint she took the role of her pagan namesake, which is what I said earlier. Or that's what I take it to mean. Anyway. I don't believe that a dead saint is somehow more special to God than other dead people and thus has the ability to pray to God better than other dead people. I don't think that dead people can hear prayers. I know this sounds blunt, but I don't mean it that way. I promise! I don't understand how those verses mean that praying to saints work. Yeah, we're not separated, but I've always understood that to mean death isn't the end and not that they pray for us. I get what you're saying, and I wasn't trying to bash you at all. Really sorry if it came off that way. :/ I would disagree with you about St Brigid, although I still don't entirely understand what you believe about her and some other Saints like her. Are you saying that when Brigid died she was treated by Catholics as if she had the same attributes as the pagan goddess? Basically, our view of the prayers of those in heaven being more powerful than those of us still here on earth, comes back to our view of justification being a process beginning when we're born again, and culminating when we enter God's presence in Heaven. We believe that a person, once they're born again, can grow in God's righteousness--similar, I believe, to the Protestant view of sanctification. And thus their prayers can be more powerful as James 5:16 says. When you look at it from the Catholic view of justification in the Bible, it fits in pretty logically I think. But I totally get how it could seem weird to non-Catholics. |
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Post by jliessa44 on Aug 16, 2016 12:34:13 GMT
Bash was the wrong word. Sorry. Yesterday was a rough one for me and I was having trouble with word choices. It was more I felt it was unnecessary to refute the post because it wasn't my beliefs and I did a poor job explaining that. My fault there and I apologize.
Pretty much. But you're not sure what I'm saying because I'm not sure what I'm saying if that makes sense. Like, I've never bothered to actually form an opinion so now I'm trying to explain what it seems like to me, but I'm not sure that's the truth.
I guess the major thing here is those verses seem to be talking about something else completely the way I was taught from the way you were taught. It does sound similar to sanctification. But it's still a touch too close to ancestor worship for my taste.
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Post by Warrior of Aror on Aug 16, 2016 13:51:01 GMT
Just to clarify the Catholic understanding of a saint, because I'm getting the sense that we aren't all on the same page: To us a saint is simply anyone who is in heaven. Literally, if you are in heaven with God then you are a saint. You are in full communion with the Holy Trinity, and closer to God than you ever were on earth. The reason only some people are spoken of as saints is because those are people for whom the Church has made the determination, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that they are definitely in heaven. It was absolutely clear by the way they lived their life before they died that they are in heaven. That's also why most, if not all Christian martyrs are canonized saints. Also, with respect to the seeing and hearing of the corporeal: the way I see it, saints are in full communion with God, so their abilities of understanding are way beyond what we have. If God is more completely aware of the universe at all given moments than anyone, would it not make sense for those in his presence who are worshipping him would also be aware of creation in a more full way than when they were flesh and blood? Speaking of which, as far as I understand it we don't exactly have flesh and blood when we die, considering that death is the separation of body and soul, so "seeing" and "hearing" really aren't the best ways to conceive of how the saints, and God, are aware of Creation. Don't you believe that every Christian alive is a saint too? |
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Post by Kirenyth Fireblade on Aug 16, 2016 14:29:18 GMT
Warrior of Aror: good point. What I get out of all of this is that I don't think that the Saints' roles are to intercede for us (that's Christ's job), but like it says in Hebrews 12:1 ("Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a huge crowd of witnesses to the life of faith, let us strip off every weight that slows us down, especially the sin that so easily trips us up. And let us run with endurance the race God has set before us.ā), they are sort of offering moral support, silently cheering us on. We shouldn't ask them to intercede for us, but instead learn from their examples and let those lessons further transform us into Christ's image (the very idea of sanctification). As for asking living believers to pray for you, that's more like what Jesus meant when he said "when two or three are gathered in my name, there I am in the midst". (Matthew 18:20) When we gather together in worship and prayer, he is there with us, another member of the group. But none of these are exactly necessary for him to actually hear our prayers. He hears us every time we call out to him, he just doesn't always answer on our time.
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Post by Aviar Goldeneagle on Aug 16, 2016 22:49:01 GMT
Bash was the wrong word. Sorry. Yesterday was a rough one for me and I was having trouble with word choices. It was more I felt it was unnecessary to refute the post because it wasn't my beliefs and I did a poor job explaining that. My fault there and I apologize. Pretty much. But you're not sure what I'm saying because I'm not sure what I'm saying if that makes sense. Like, I've never bothered to actually form an opinion so now I'm trying to explain what it seems like to me, but I'm not sure that's the truth. I guess the major thing here is those verses seem to be talking about something else completely the way I was taught from the way you were taught. It does sound similar to sanctification. But it's still a touch too close to ancestor worship for my taste. Alright, that's fine. I don't believe Catholics have ever treated St Brigid different than any other Saint. From our point of view, the Saints in Heaven are more alive than we are. And so we see asking them to pray for us as no different than asking a fellow Christian on earth to pray for us. But again, I totally get how it could seem weird to you and other non-Catholics. What I was trying to show with the verses I originally posted, was that death isn't the end and we're still connected with Christians who have died as we're all part of the body of Christ. From our point of view, it's really no different than asking someone here on earth to pray for us. But yeah, I guess it comes down to interpretation and what basis we have for believing that interpretation. |
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Post by Aviar Goldeneagle on Aug 16, 2016 23:18:54 GMT
Warrior of Aror : good point. What I get out of all of this is that I don't think that the Saints' roles are to intercede for us (that's Christ's job), but like it says in Hebrews 12:1 ("Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a huge crowd of witnesses to the life of faith, let us strip off every weight that slows us down, especially the sin that so easily trips us up. And let us run with endurance the race God has set before us.ā), they are sort of offering moral support, silently cheering us on. We shouldn't ask them to intercede for us, but instead learn from their examples and let those lessons further transform us into Christ's image (the very idea of sanctification). As for asking living believers to pray for you, that's more like what Jesus meant when he said "when two or three are gathered in my name, there I am in the midst". (Matthew 18:20) When we gather together in worship and prayer, he is there with us, another member of the group. But none of these are exactly necessary for him to actually hear our prayers. He hears us every time we call out to him, he just doesn't always answer on our time. The Catholic view of saint is anyone who is a Christian, yes. So all Christians on earth are also saints. However, like Ellron said, the Catholic Church also uses the word Saint (usually with a big 'S') to refer to the people who are in Heaven. This is because, since they are in Heaven, we *know* they are Christians, and therefore saints. On earth, you may be a saint now, but could turn away in the future. Or maybe you never were a saint in the first place. You say that you think it's Christ's role to intercede for us, and absolutely it is, but it's not his exclusively. The Bible does tell us many times to offer prayers and to intercede for each other (1Tim 2:1 "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men" [emphasis added]) And if it is true that all the Saints in heaven are watching us and cheering us on as if we were in a race (which is how I understand Hebrews 12), then it makes sense to me that they would be praying for us. Just like someone watching a race might pray for their favourite competitor to win, the Saints in Heaven would be praying for us to win the race of Life. And like you said, as well as having them pray for us, they provide awesome examples for us to look up to and emulate in our lives. |
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Post by NightBlade on Aug 16, 2016 23:36:12 GMT
That second paragraph is a good point. I get that.
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Post by Warrior of Aror on Sept 22, 2016 13:31:14 GMT
Has anyone ever heard of/listened to the Unbelievable? podcast? It's a great podcast which usually has a Christian and an atheist on the show to discuss and debate subjects. The guests on the show are usually pretty intelligent and civil. They have all their episodes on their website. www.premierchristianradio.com/Shows/Saturday/Unbelievable/Episodes/And most of the guests have British accents. So that's another plus. |
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Post by Aviar Goldeneagle on Sept 23, 2016 0:07:27 GMT
I have listened to a couple of debates on there. One of them was a Catholic vs Protestant debate and the other a Calvinist vs Armenian one. Haven't done any of the Christian vs atheist ones though.
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Post by NightBlade on Sept 23, 2016 0:17:04 GMT
I used to live on Christian v Athiest arguments.
It's funny how they poke fun at our "circular reasoning" for appealing to the Bible as proof of God's authority and vice versa. Literally all I say is "well what do you appeal to" and they're done for
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Post by Warrior of Aror on Jan 4, 2017 16:08:10 GMT
I was reading Acts last night and I found a verse that I was puzzled by.
Acts 16:6-10 ESV)
The Macedonian Call
6 And they went through the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia. 7 And when they had come up to Mysia, they attempted to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus did not allow them.
I was wondering if anyone knew why Paul and Timothy were not allowed to go to Asia (and whether this is the province of Asia or the continent - I would assume the former and not the latter). Or maybe this is just one of the mysteries of the Bible that isn't explained?
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Post by Leilani Sunblade on Jan 4, 2017 17:09:48 GMT
I would assume that they weren't allowed to go because God had work for them to do elsewhere, or because that region wasn't ready for their message. One of the two.
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Post by Warrior of Aror on Jan 4, 2017 18:40:08 GMT
But why weren't they ready, Leilani? |
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Post by NightBlade on Jan 4, 2017 18:44:16 GMT
Well, do you feel ready to preach to synagogues in Asia? I don't...707
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.jpg)
Quote boxes are the people I'm responding too.
The only difference is that the Saints in Heaven are glorified and completed in righteousness with God, while we here on Earth still sin. More on this below.
